Cmichini

I see it as all of the above (courtesy, efficiency PLUS safety).

Courtesy - It's polite to let others on the road know you're up to. Simply put, it's courteous to communicate to each other when sharing a common resource (i.e., the roadway)
Efficiency - If you've let them know what you'll be doing, it will allow them to plan their actions accordingly and hopefully make a smooth, efficient flow
Safety - I'm trying to do whatever I can to ensure other drivers know what I'm up to so my moves don't come as a surprise to them and I get hammered

Of course all of this is moot if the motorists you're sharing the road with are inattentive, selfish, lazy, ignorant, overly aggressive, impatient.... (i.e., most NC drivers)

livedarklions

Since this canard is getting raised again, I feel I was falsely accused of being discourteous because I believe putting my foot down is a much clearer signal of stopping than anything I can do with my hands. I would bet 90% of people have no idea how a cyclist is supposed to signal a stop.

Also, rereading this sorry exchange, it's pretty clear that the people lecturing me about courtesy were actually needing to signal a "rolling stop" because they were too lazy to clip out at the intersection. They're actually needing to signal because they're not behaving legally.

roundypndr 

I no longer stop for pedestrians waiting to cross a street while riding my bicycle, my concern is being hit from behind by a inattentive motorist, the "no good deed goes unpunished" is my thought on this subject. The times that I did stop for pedestrians waiting to cross the street, I wasn't met with a thank you, waves or smiles, but chuckles, laughter, smirks, and questioning looks.

roundypndr 

Then shoots it down while riding against traffic in one segment, and sans headlight at night.

livedarklions

Cool story, bro!

I guess people can rationalize anything, but you are breaking the law when you do that, and if you hit a pedestrian in a crosswalk, you are going to be 100% at fault.

It's not a "good deed", it's basic rules of the road.

roundypndr 

If the pedestrian is in the crosswalk, yes, I will stop, if it's a signaled intersection and the pedestrian has the walk signal, I will stop, otherwise no.

grizzly59

Nobody remembers signaling with a raised left hand. If they actually look up from their phone they probably think it means "accelerate and pass me on my right". Seriously, left hand point left for left turn, right hand point right for right turn. Assume there is no signal that will be understood for slow or stop.

livedarklions

Well, since the quote you were reacting to was specifically about pedestrians at crosswalks, that was far from clear. You might want to check the ordinances and statutes regarding pedestrians crossing elsewhere. A surprising number of states require you to yield no matter where the pedestrian is crossing.

BTW, did you mean to say you wouldn't stop for a pedestrian at a stop sign? I'm assuming that was not what you meant.

roundypndr 

So far, most motorists seem to understand my hand motions for slowing or stopping, and when I'm wearing my Glo Gloves, I really get even more attention from motorists.

roundypndr 

If I have the stop sign, I stop, pedestrian or not.

livedarklions

Well, one rule I routinely break is that I'll roll through a stop sign if I can clearly see no one else is at or approaching the intersection.

Honestly, I don't think we disagree much now that you've spelled out what you meant. The pedestrian crossing at the middle of the block is always problematic, they're very hard to predict enough to stop for them.

roundypndr 

My stop is just shy of a track stand on quiet back streets, and a complete one at busy intersections.
Pedestrians crossing at mid block are usually not a problem at my travel speed, with my road position generally in the right tire track, and my situational awareness on high intensity when passing parked cars that can easily hide pedestrians.

livedarklions

I don't find I have any problem avoiding hitting pedestrians crossing in the middle of the block, only that stopping for them is really not practical. I'm generally exceeding 20 mph between intersections, so slamming the brakes when they are nearing my path unexpectedly is not going to be the best avoidance strategy.

Part of my situational awareness is picking the best lane position for a particular road, but that's a subject for an entirely different thread, we're already too far into a different subject than the thread.

Oldbill

I agree with using both hands to signal normally, but there are times it does not work. In our area we have lots of traffic circles. In a small traffic circle I always pull into the circle with my left arm out. It does 2 things, the first is to take the whole lane and second to show how long I will be in the circle. When I exit the circle is the problem. I am usually doing about 15kph (10mph) and leaning in to corner. Switching hands to signal with the right is dangerous and quite hard to do while in a curve, so I have to use the crooked left arm.

livedarklions

I don't signal at all in a traffic circle. What I'm doing is obvious and having to remove either hand from the bars during what is really a glorified swerve clearly reduces my margin of safety more than any signal could increase it.

Oldbill

So you let drivers guess which way you are going and what exit you will take. What could possibly go wrong.......

Notso_fastLane

Given the way bikes and traffic circles work, I don't see this as having any impact on safety.

Most drivers (at least in the US) don't signal at traffic circles either. Then again, there are only a few places where signalling would be clear, given the very short distance between turnoffs. (Most traffic circles in the US are usually at small intersections were there would only normally be a 4 way stop anyway.)

livedarklions

I have to wait until the lane is clear to enter the circle, so who am I signaling and what signal am I supposed to throw before I enter? I'm not turning, I'm basically proceeding forward (no signal for that). Upon being in the circle, it's a one-way circle and I'm going to exit to the right. I'm generally on the right side of the lane anyway, so there's approximately a 0% chance that my path is going to cross the track of the car behind me when I exit. If I'm going to bypass the first exit, I'm in the lane of the circle to make this obvious and, as I'm sure you're aware, there is no signal for "not turning".. What relevant info am I leaving anyone to guess?



If you're talking about multi-lane traffic circles, I might have to signal a shift in and out of the innermost (left) lane, but that's relatively rare where I ride.

Capricorn2

I myself am afraid to let go of the steering wheel while driving and I am scared when other cyclists do it. It is because of this that I once had an accident.

Digger Goreman

Empirically I understand the left arm crook reasoning: Going downhill at 20+ mph, signalling with right arm extended and braking with left hand only is a bit shaky as you are only using your front brake. Dragging from the rear is more stable (while signalling).

Elbeinlaw

Until today I would have said (and I have said repeatedly on this site) that I use lots of hand communication and that it works well. But today I have to revise that. Today, within 20 minutes I had the same situation come up twice, made the same signals twice, and had the same result twice.

I was making a left turn at a light both times. Both times I was in the left turn lane, but on the line between the left turn lane and the straight-ahead lane. Both times while the light was red I turned and got the attention of the driver behind me, then pantomimed that I was going to be turning left. One driver just stared at me like I had two heads. The other one raised his arms and shook his head with a perplexed look on his face, like he didn't understand what I was saying.

This is a different world than the one I bicycle-commuted in 10 years ago. I used to be wary about riding in traffic. Now I'm getting to the point of being petrified because (as Digger keeps saying) they're stupid and distracted. (I believe his descriptions are more colorful.)

I-Like-To-Bike

Your positioning to make a left turn was so wrong, that no hand signals or pantomining would make your intention clear to motorists approaching from the rear.

livedarklions

Agreed. If I'm in the left turn lane, I'm definitely in the center of it. Anywhere else is either dangerous and/or ambiguous. I've had drivers behind me try to push me out of the lane before I am clear to make the turn, but their honking, speeding and yelling insults made it clear it wasn't because of any misunderstanding. They just don't like it when I follow the correct statute-prescribed procedure.

njkayaker

???

https://www.baatraining.com/what-is-...ger%20aircraft.

Iride01 

If I'm in the left turn lane, I'm in the center of that lane. If straddling a line the driver might have thought anything. Maybe they thought you shot them the bird. Or perhaps they thought you were allowing them to go at the same time. Who knows.

That is probably why there are only a few specific hand signals for vehicle operators to learn, left turn, right turn and stopping. Anything else can't be expected to be understood to someone that is viewing things from a perspective you can't see.

Using signals you make up as you go that the other person isn't required to know isn't a great idea to rely on.