Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Downhill technique: Flairing one's knee

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Downhill technique: Flairing one's knee

Old 03-11-20, 09:44 AM
  #76  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,212

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by Amt0571
I don't agree. When riding a bicycle we're basically "falling" constantly on one side or the other. What we do to avoid hitting the ground is using the handlebar to constantly put the bicycle under us. For example: if you fall to the left, you turn left to put the bike again under you. You have to mantain this equilibrium to avoid falling off the bike. This is why it's so difficult to do a track stand (because you can't constantly steer the bike under your). This means that it's impossible to ride a bicycle in a real straight line (it can be really narrow, but not fully straight).

When you enter a right turn you first countersteer to move the bike that sits under you to the left (which means you start falling to the right, since you moved the bike left, but your body kept going straight because of inertia). As you start the turn, your mass will pull you outwards, so what you do to avoid kissing the ground is use the handlebars to keep the bike in a delicate equilibrium that equals the centrifugal force that's pulling you outwards while you turn, with the gravity that's pulling you to the ground. As you exit the turn, you just steer harder to the right until the bike is under you again.

This means that it's impossible to counter steer the whole turn unless your rear tire is partially skidding. In a tight turn, you probably countersteer only to enter the turn, while on a wide one it's possible to countersteer partially through it, but not during the whole turn.
Written by someone who hasn't ridden thousands of miles of winding mountain descents on both bike and motorcycle. If you had, you'd know better.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 03-11-20, 10:48 AM
  #77  
ckindt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: near Omaha, NE
Posts: 259

Bikes: Trek Domane 2020 SLR7, 2016 4.3 Disc, 2017 Raleigh Stuntman

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 21 Posts
Herein lies the answer: Gyroscopic Precession Steering.
Who can explain it though?
ckindt is offline  
Likes For ckindt:
Old 03-11-20, 10:50 AM
  #78  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
All the talk of what road racing motorcycle drivers do is irrelevant.
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:05 AM
  #79  
berner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 4,340

Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 663 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times in 299 Posts
I was out practicing flaring a knee but forgot which side was supposed to flare. So I alternated.
berner is offline  
Likes For berner:
Old 03-11-20, 11:20 AM
  #80  
mvnsnd
Senior Member
 
mvnsnd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: WNY
Posts: 3,098

Bikes: Factor O2, Caad10, Caad2

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 365 Post(s)
Liked 122 Times in 78 Posts
mvnsnd is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:32 AM
  #81  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
Has anyone said stem Christie yet?
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:46 AM
  #82  
tyrion
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
Originally Posted by Litespud
This - if you look at racing motorcyclists cornering hard, they don't just drop their inside knee, they shift their whole body over, so their ass is hanging off the seat on the inside. By shifting their center of gravity to the inside, that can keep the bike as upright as possible and maintain maximum grip in the corner. Cyclists can't do that - if the outside pedal is down and their outside leg is at close to full stretch, they couldn't shift off the saddle even if they wanted to, but their inside knee drops and I imagine they shift as much body weight to the inside as possible to achieve the same thing - move the COG of the rider/bike combination to the inside, so that the bike can be held as upright as possible to maximize grip.
No. Maximum lean provides maximum grip because motorcycle tires are designed that way - the tire contact patch is bigger when leaned over. On motorcycles you shift your weight off to the side after you've leaned the bike to its max and still need more weight offset.
tyrion is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 12:11 PM
  #83  
Lemond1985
Sophomore Member
 
Lemond1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,690
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,057 Times in 631 Posts
By shifting their center of gravity to the inside, that can keep the bike as upright as possible and maintain maximum grip in the corner.
I've used that technique (on a bicycle) going around corners where traction is suspect. Let your body do all the leaning while you keep the tires as upright as possible. Works good on wet cobbles.

But where traction is good, I agree that leaning increases the contact patch, and will get you around a corner fastest and safest.
Lemond1985 is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 01:11 PM
  #84  
Jack Tone 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 598
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 389 Post(s)
Liked 255 Times in 165 Posts
Some motorcycle tires used to have a triangular cross section, I don't know of any now. All the bicycle tires I've ever used had a circular cross section. I'm not sure how you think a tire leaned over has a larger contact patch?
Jack Tone is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 01:51 PM
  #85  
Amt0571
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Catalonia
Posts: 956

Bikes: Canyon Grand Canyon AL SL 8.0, Triban RC520 Gravel Ltd, Btwin Ultra 520 AF GF, Triban Road 7, Benotto 850

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 402 Post(s)
Liked 215 Times in 137 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Written by someone who hasn't ridden thousands of miles of winding mountain descents on both bike and motorcycle. If you had, you'd know better.
Written by someone who knows more about my life than myself, apparently.

My commute to work includes a winding mountain descent, BTW.
Amt0571 is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 03:51 PM
  #86  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,212

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
To get others like you to shut up. I've never compared racing motorcycles to bicycles.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 04:00 PM
  #87  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,212

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
At least the posted video finally mentions the fact that the higher the speed, the more continuous countersteering must've applied and the harder it becomes to maintain the turn. Although it may appear like the countersteering isn't continuous, anyone who has ridden a motorcycle over many winding turns knows that the countersteering must be continuous, or the bike will straighten up and quit turning. It's very tiring.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 04:35 PM
  #88  
ckindt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: near Omaha, NE
Posts: 259

Bikes: Trek Domane 2020 SLR7, 2016 4.3 Disc, 2017 Raleigh Stuntman

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
At least the posted video finally mentions the fact that the higher the speed, the more continuous countersteering must've applied and the harder it becomes to maintain the turn. Although it may appear like the countersteering isn't continuous, anyone who has ridden a motorcycle over many winding turns knows that the countersteering must be continuous, or the bike will straighten up and quit turning. It's very tiring.
It's true.
I learned quickly after riding the Tail of the Dragon the first time.
ckindt is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 05:08 PM
  #89  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
To get others like you to shut up. I've never compared racing motorcycles to bicycles.
My apologies. You have not, in fact, mentioned motorcycle racing in your posts. But, you do keep bringing up riding motorcycles on the road. The techniques used in those two activities are more similar to each other (due to relative weights) than they are to riding a bicycle, so if the former is irrelevant, then so is the latter.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 05:57 PM
  #90  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,500

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
That is absolutely the case. Countersteering does not just initiate a turn, it maintains the turn. Quit countersteering and the bike will straighten up.
This is the essence of it. I wrote somewhere above that I thought that the bike would continue through the turn if one let go of the bars. I was wrong. it will straighten up. I thought that because the amount of bar pressure required on a bicycle is so slight that one doesn't notice it. That means that the wheels will move all by themselves until they are under you. If you push an empty bike away from you, it will stay upright. That's the magic which makes cycling possible.

That said, it is true than in a noticeably tight turn even with considerable lean at a good speed, taking a hairpin fast is a good example, the front wheel will be pointed in the direction of the turn, as graphed above. That doesn't mean that countersteering isn't taking place, because were that forward pressure on the inside bar removed, the front wheel would quickly point even more in the direction of the turn, bringing the wheels under the rider, the bike upright, and pretty quickly off the road on the outside. That is, unless the angle of lean were so great that the increased inside steering angle caused the front wheel to wash out. That's why it's so hard to change line when cornering fast.

This is quite easy to confirm by testing at a moderate lean angle, which I have done. No need to discuss it, go try. The only issue here is the definition of countersteer. It seems most practical to define it as slight forward pressure on the inside bar before and during a turn. That said, it may seem like one is only providing down pressure on that bar to increase lean angle and that can be true if the bike were to lean more, yet follow the same line. In that case, the position of the CG w/r to contact patch has not changed, only the lean angle of the frame. To change line will require forward or aft pressure on the bars (change of steering angle) to move the wheels more or less under the CG, no matter the current steering angle.

One should never corner very close to the outside edge of the pavement for this reason. If one gets too close, it'll be impossible to move the wheels to the outside (increased countersteer) enough to increase lean angle and continue to follow the road around. See Jan Ullrich.in the '01 TdF, wisely going off the road before being hitting the guardrail because he didn't countersteer early enough and then couldn't. Brilliant bit of decision making. I've seen some local folks I was following go off into the blackberries in just this manner. Except for the blood, blackberries make great barriers.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 06:11 PM
  #91  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
That said, it is true than in a noticeably tight turn even with considerable lean at a good speed, taking a hairpin fast is a good example, the front wheel will be pointed in the direction of the turn, as graphed above. That doesn't mean that countersteering isn't taking place, because were that forward pressure on the inside bar removed, the front wheel would quickly point even more in the direction of the turn, bringing the wheels under the rider, the bike upright, and pretty quickly off the road on the outside.
How is it possible that people can turn while riding "no hands", if they can't apply forward pressure to the inside bar?
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 06:31 PM
  #92  
Lemond1985
Sophomore Member
 
Lemond1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,690
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,057 Times in 631 Posts
I would never try this myself, and have never seen anyone else do it. Seems like a very Bad Idea.
Lemond1985 is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 06:57 PM
  #93  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,655

Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times in 640 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
How is it possible that people can turn while riding "no hands", if they can't apply forward pressure to the inside bar?
By leaning or moving the upper body. Same as steering a bicycle you are pushing by holding the saddle.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 08:07 PM
  #94  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,273

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1428 Post(s)
Liked 697 Times in 353 Posts
Haven’t taken the time to read the whole thread, but Davis, “the cash register” Phinney has taken the time to explain why keeping your knee tucked in promotes the right hip angulation and counter steering. You can google it or do a bike forum search to see where this has been discussed ad naseum..

Given that Davis has won more races than any American, won multiple Tour De Frances stages, and was a great descender, I’ll chose to emulate his approach.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Likes For merlinextraligh:
Old 03-11-20, 10:01 PM
  #95  
Robert A
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 752

Bikes: 2019 CAAD12, 2015 Specialized Sirrus Comp

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 559 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 63 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
At least the posted video finally mentions the fact that the higher the speed, the more continuous countersteering must've applied and the harder it becomes to maintain the turn. Although it may appear like the countersteering isn't continuous, anyone who has ridden a motorcycle over many winding turns knows that the countersteering must be continuous, or the bike will straighten up and quit turning. It's very tiring.
I don't understand this comment. How is countersteering continuous? I thought you did it only once to initiate the turn.
Robert A is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 07:37 AM
  #96  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,212

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by Robert A
I don't understand this comment. How is countersteering continuous? I thought you did it only once to initiate the turn.
The mistake made in most videos is they fail to mention that countersteering pressure on the bars is required to maintain a turn. They switch to watching the direction of the front tire, which does not matter. It's the correct amount of constant pressure that matters.

The highly experienced motorcycle cop that taught my training course was very clear. Push on the right to turn right - just the opposite of slow speed turning. The bike will lean to the right and turn right. If you ever quit pushing, the bike will return to it's straight ahead path. Pushing harder or lowering speed will both tighten the turn. The angle of the bars or front tire was never mentioned because they don't matter. If you couldn't get that through your head, you'd never complete the series of turns on the training course. One of my earliest motorcycle rides was from my home in Highlands Ranch, Colorado to Idaho Springs, through the mountains. I made it through many tight turns with no problem.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 07:40 AM
  #97  
Robert A
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 752

Bikes: 2019 CAAD12, 2015 Specialized Sirrus Comp

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 559 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 63 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
The mistake made in most videos is they fail to mention that countersteering pressure on the bars is required to maintain a turn. They switch to watching the direction of the front tire, which does not matter. It's the correct amount of constant pressure that matters.

The highly experienced motorcycle cop that taught my training course was very clear. Push on the right to turn right - just the opposite of slow speed turning. The bike will lean to the right and turn right. If you ever quit pushing, the bike will return to it's straight ahead path. Pushing harder or lowering speed will both tighten the turn. The angle of the bars or front tire was never mentioned because they don't matter. If you couldn't get that through your head, you'd never complete the series of turns on the training course. One of my earliest motorcycle rides was from my home in Highlands Ranch, Colorado to Idaho Springs, through the mountains. I made it through many tight turns with no problem.
I have not had a chance to try this out. When we're applying pressure on the bars to maintain countersteer on a turn to the right, what exactly are we doing? Are we only applying only additional weight to the right-side bar, or actually pushing forward? If we're on the hoods instead of the drops, does it matter?
Robert A is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 08:19 AM
  #98  
55murray
Full Member
 
55murray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 207 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 58 Posts
Originally Posted by Robert A
How does that improve grip? The lateral pressure on the tires should be the same regardless of how the rider leans, or am I missing something?
Yes that is correct, it is just that your sidewall or even the mostly unused side sections of the bottom of the tire (unscuffed, accumulations of dirt/oil/residue) will not have as good a grip.
55murray is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 08:23 AM
  #99  
55murray
Full Member
 
55murray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 207 Post(s)
Liked 108 Times in 58 Posts
Been a while since we had a good old fashioned countersteering thread! Can't turn the bike without it, unless you hit something. It is super obvious if you zig zag down a street- when you change direction near the middle of the street it is very apparent what you are doing.
55murray is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 10:26 AM
  #100  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
The mistake made in most videos is they fail to mention that countersteering pressure on the bars is required to maintain a turn. They switch to watching the direction of the front tire, which does not matter. It's the correct amount of constant pressure that matters.
It matters when you make incorrect statements about the direction of the front tire:

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Are you stating that your bars will turned to the left during the entirety of a right hand turn?
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
That is absolutely the case. Countersteering does not just initiate a turn, it maintains the turn. Quit countersteering and the bike will straighten up.
I'll repeat an earlier question: if constant pressure on the bars is required, how is it possible to turn a bicycle while riding "no hands"?
tomato coupe is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.