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Week trips near Michigan

Old 04-21-20, 11:50 PM
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Week trips near Michigan

Hello all, long time no chat! Hope everyone is doing good with the obvious talk of the day, week, month and year!


To get all the questions out of the way, last summer was filled with house buying and selling, a new car with no bike rack, and bikes in storage meaning not much riding and not much chatting on Bike Forums! This year should be obvious to everyone: no world traveling, a pay cut, and a glut of vacation that must be used.


I've got three and a half weeks of vacation this year. 2018 was my last big bike trip, so I'd like to devote a week to a week and a half of that time to another trip. Obviously it must now be somewhere I can drive in the US (no more than a days drive from Detroit), probably a circle tour unless leaving from somewhere in the Detroit area and returning on train. Needs either convenient hotels or nice campgrounds along the way, as the wifey is on this trip. No big group rides, otherwise I would just go on DALMAC or PALM or such, but I doubt any will end up happening. The wife likes rail trails, if any such option is available, but not necessary. We are cool up to 50ish miles a day, or at least were two years ago


Any and all ideas are welcome! Any favorite riding areas in the area?
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Old 04-22-20, 05:38 AM
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Ride around Lake Micjhigan. Make sure the ferries are running from either Muskegon or Ludington and make that your starting point. Ride to Manitowoc or Milwaukee WI depending on the ferry selected. I am not sure the slow ferry is still operating.

you could also just stay on the MI side. Lots of beautiful places in N Michigan.
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Old 04-22-20, 07:37 AM
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I have a few ideas, here's one: drive to Midland, hop on the Pere Marquette Rail Trail , take it to Reed City (70 miles), go south on the White Pine Trail (60 miles) until Grand Rapids. From there you can take the connector trail to Lake Michigan. Then, you can take the Hart Montague Trail North for like fifty miles, then it's like a half day to Ludington. From there, you can head East until you get back on the Pere Marquette trail to go back to Midland. That's around 270 miles on rail trail--mostly paved--out of 400.

This trip can easily be modified. Go north at Claire off the PMT, ride to Grayling where you cut through the Harwick Pines SF, and on to Waters. That's where the North Central Rail Trail starts (they just finished an extension from Gaylord). The trail goes for 80 miles to Mackinac City. You could then visit Mackinac Island, head back down the trail until Cheboygen where it splits. You could then take the trail to Alpena, and finally, ride along Lake Huron back to Midland.

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Old 04-22-20, 10:22 AM
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I just thought of another one: drive to St Ignace, camp at the state park. Take the ferry to Mackinac Island, then take the ferry to the mainland . Take the bike trail towards Petoskey and continue to Traverse City. Plenty to see there--Old Mission peninsula; Torch Lake; wine and cherry country.
From TC, you could head east towards Grayling so you could take the NCRT to Mackinac City.

I never rode from TC to Grayling, but it's my experience that the roads up north that go east to west, have very little traffic. You could also see the Tunnel of Trees by taking a right on Gill Rd when you're on the trail to Petoskey. Keep going until you hit the lake and take a left. Take it until Petoskey, then you can get back on the trail to Charlevoix.
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Old 04-22-20, 05:28 PM
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Week trips near Michigan
Originally Posted by jefnvk
Hello all, long time no chat! Hope everyone is doing good with the obvious talk of the day, week, month and year!

To get all the questions out of the way, last summer was filled with house buying and selling, a new car with no bike rack, and bikes in storage meaning not much riding and not much chatting on Bike Forums! This year should be obvious to everyone: no world traveling, a pay cut, and a glut of vacation that must be used.

I've got three and a half weeks of vacation this year. 2018 was my last big bike trip, so I'd like to devote a week to a week and a half of that time to another trip. Obviously it must now be somewhere I can drive in the US (no more than a days drive from Detroit), probably a circle tour unless leaving from somewhere in the Detroit area and returning on train.

Needs either convenient hotels or nice campgrounds along the way, as the wifey is on this trip. ...The wife likes rail trails, if any such option is available, but not necessary. We are cool up to 50ish miles a day, or at least were two years ago

Any and all ideas are welcome! Any favorite riding areas in the area?
As a Michigan native, I got my start in touring in Southeast Michigan:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
...Back in the 60’s in the Motor City, I had an “English Racer,’ and longed to tour at about age 14, but then joined the car culture. In Ann Arbor MI in the 70’s I really realized the utility of bicycles for commuting, and began touring on a five-speed Schwinn Suburban, but soon bought a Mercier as did my girlfriend, later my wife. We toured in Michigan and Ontario.

In 1977 we moved to Boston on our bikes, as a bicycling honeymoon from Los Angeles to Washington, DC and then took the train up to Boston. We have toured in New England and the Maritime Provinces, and one trip to the DelMarVa peninsula...
In replies to several threads about touring venues I have touted Michigan:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
"Suggestions for next epic ride"...

FWIW, after decades I still have fond memories of my earliest cycle touring in my home state of Michigan. Tourism is, I believe Michigan’s second largest industry, and it’s largely a rural / forested state with a lengthy shoreline, an extensive road system, and numerous towns and facilities, including campgrounds, spaced at convenient cycling distances.

IMO, an excellent, though perhaps mundane getaway. Just sayin’…FWIW (even as a cross-country cyclist).
However, for something completely different, might I suggest riding in Metro Boston. For me, it’s about a one day drive to Detroit of about 700 miles through Canada; about 850 through Ohio (by myself). Once, I drove to do the one day OneHelluvaRide (as well as to visit family).

FYA, I have posted about Boston:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Personally. I'm very happy cycling in Metro Boston, and have posted an informal Cycling Guide to Metro Boston (link) that would make a nice hub and spoke tour...It may seem parochial, but I think the cycling around here is great.

One can be in scenic countryside within about one hour from downtown, while passing through an interesting, compact urban and suburban scene. Furthermore you can extend your range with a convenient Commuter Rail that allows fully-assembled bikes during off-peak hours. In Spring through Fall it’s a temperate climate.


Besides the cycling, Boston is such a popular tourist destination that there will always be something interesting to do off the bike…culture, nightlife, sports and so forth.

[If] you would like to avoid the urban experience, and further out into New England could satisfy that condition. Camping near Boston too would be problematic, but not impossible. If you’ve never been here before, the experience may be even more…epic.
In my above link to Metro Boston Cycling I further link to MUPS and trails in Metro Boston and Cape Cod.

In any case.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
BTW, over the years I have responded to several of these threads with open-ended requests for travel destinations.One thing they have in common is that the OP never informs us of the final destination, much less how was the trip, even when requested to do so.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-22-20 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 04-22-20, 05:48 PM
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Welcome back!!

My wife and I have ridden portions of the routes Lanesplitter suggested. I was going to suggest a loop in Southern Ontario, but his suggestions are better. Michigan has a lot to offer, and it is close to home. With 2800 miles of rails-to-tails, and quiet rural roads it is hard to beat.

Bliss is southwest of Mackinaw City

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Old 04-22-20, 08:22 PM
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What about the Lake to Lake trail, isn't it open pretty much the whole way now ? Lake Michigan, South Haven to Lake Huron, Port Huron, thinking it was just under 300 miles.
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Old 04-22-20, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lanesplitter
I have a few ideas, here's one: drive to Midland, hop on the Pere Marquette Rail Trail , take it to Reed City (70 miles), go south on the White Pine Trail (60 miles) until Grand Rapids. From there you can take the connector trail to Lake Michigan. Then, you can take the Hart Montague Trail North for like fifty miles, then it's like a half day to Ludington. From there, you can head East until you get back on the Pere Marquette trail to go back to Midland. That's around 270 miles on rail trail--mostly paved--out of 400.

This trip can easily be modified. Go north at Claire off the PMT, ride to Grayling where you cut through the Harwick Pines SF, and on to Waters. That's where the North Central Rail Trail starts (they just finished an extension from Gaylord). The trail goes for 80 miles to Mackinac City. You could then visit Mackinac Island, head back down the trail until Cheboygen where it splits. You could then take the trail to Alpena, and finally, ride along Lake Huron back to Midland.
That's actually a really good idea, especially as I'm originally from Midland and have a bunch of places to stash a car there. Thanks for that!

Originally Posted by Doug64
Welcome back!!

My wife and I have ridden portions of the routes Lanesplitter suggested. I was going to suggest a loop in Southern Ontario, but his suggestions are better. Michigan has a lot to offer, and it is close to home. With 2800 miles of rails-to-tails, and quiet rural roads it is hard to beat
Thanks Doug! Good to be back playing on bikes. Not looking for Canada at this point, at least until we get a bit more clarity on what things are looking like going forward. Birder is closed until at least June right now :/

Originally Posted by robow
What about the Lake to Lake trail, isn't it open pretty much the whole way now ? Lake Michigan, South Haven to Lake Huron, Port Huron, thinking it was just under 300 miles.
There are still large gaps missing from it. Hopefully some day!
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Old 04-22-20, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Week trips near MichiganAs a Michigan native, I got my start in touring in Southeast Michigan:In replies to several threads about touring venues I have touted Michigan:However, for something completely different, might I suggest riding in Metro Boston. For me, it’s about a one day drive to Detroit of about 700 miles through Canada; about 850 through Ohio (by myself). Once, I drove to do the one day OneHelluvaRide (as well as to visit family).
Actually, the wife has a good friend that moved to Boston last summer, that we have been meaning to go visit. Any good loops out there you would suggest?
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Old 04-23-20, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Actually, the wife has a good friend that moved to Boston last summer, that we have been meaning to go visit. Any good loops out there you would suggest?
Wow, that's a tough question since I have enjoyed numerous routes for decades.

As I described in my aforementioned informal Guide to Metro Boston Cycling (link) we live near downtown Boston and I described radial sectors, each good for out-and-back routes, and also served with roll-on commuter rail.

For a preliminary view I suggest getting an AAA Metropolitan Boston map from an AAA office free if you are a member. You’ll see a complicated haphazard (but interesting and mostly rideable) street layout on a cyclable scale, very different from Detoit's sprawling grid system.


Also linked on my Guide is a description of good MUPs and trails.

More ambitiously, I was intrigued by this post:
Originally Posted by jeff400650
"I'm taking off on another 2 day trip tomorrow"

I've been doing these fun rides lately... Pick a cool town about 50 or 60 scenic miles away. Book a nice room near town. Ride there (in my case, with my dog along). And then have my wife drive there to meet for a nice, romantic night on the town. It takes her an hour or two, to drive to where it takes me and my 20LB dog to get in a leisurely 6 hours or so. Some fine dining. A hike. Shopping. Maybe live music.

Next morning, charming breakfast, etc... Then I ride home, usually a different route.

It has been great. I get two days of serious riding, and she gets fun little get-a-ways close to home. We are exploring towns near us that we would otherwise never spend a night in, except that for a cyclist, it is a day's journey.

Healdsburg, CA. a few weeks ago
Halfmoon Bay, CA. a couple weeks ago
Tomorrow, Guerneville, CA. Staying at a place built in 1905. Cabins on the Russian River.

I guess you could call it short range, luxury touring with a spousal inclusion component.

Anyone else into this kind of thing? Or lucky enough to have a girl that will do the rides with you?
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
...I recently posted: A couple years ago I thought about making up such list for weekend getaways, as you described, and posting to the local Metro Boston thread.

We live in downtown Boston, and can go out in all directions (except eastward into the Atlantic Ocean). So for here on the Right Coast, counterclockwise around Boston, such destinations would be:


  • Newburyport, MA (did a mutual cycle trip there once)
  • Portsmouth, NH
  • Nashua, NH
  • Lowell, MA
  • Worcester, MA
  • Providence, RI (did a car weekend trip there)
  • Plymouth, MA (one mutual cycle trip there).
One other destination,within the ring of towns listed, is Cape Ann, about 40 miles north of Boston.
Maybe such a "short range, luxury touring with a spousal inclusion component" would be amenable wherever you go.

Then there are farther outlying areas to drive to such as Cape Cod, Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket Island and even New Hampshire and Vermont a few hours drive from Boston for mountainous terrains (Road or MTB)

.BTW, if I may ask, where does your wife’s friend live? When discussing Boston with Detroiters, I like to find the equivalencies between neigborhoods and towns of those two cities.

.↓↓↓↓

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-23-20 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 04-23-20, 10:56 AM
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ɅɅɅɅ

If you would like to come to Boston, I have posted on a few occasions:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
... All my visitors have a great time here. Not to brag, but e.g…
Originally Posted by Maelochs
Well, all the ones which made it out alive...
I really enjoy showing visitors around Boston on informal walking tours [or bikes], and I would offer that to a fellow BF subscriber, but I'm a pretty busy person, and would need a heads up to see if I'm available at a mutually agreeable time
Originally Posted by miss kenton
...Our trip to Boston was more fun than I could have ever anticipated. I would highly recommend a visit to Boston to anyone. What a beautiful city--and if you are lucky enough to have someone as conscientious, thoughtful, and generous as Jim from Boston guiding you through that trip, you'll have it made!

We were able to see some really interesting things in Boston, and Boston has a great deal to offer. We were only there for the weekend, but I wish we had had more time to see the city.
Originally Posted by irwin7638
… I loved Bahstahn a bunch, one cannot really call it a college town, it is the college town and consequently has become very bike friendly.

I was really impressed with the bike infrastructure developed in the town and the overall safety of the city..
Originally Posted by rtool
Spent a great weekend with Jim (Jimfromboston). Arrived Friday afternoon and we took off for a ride around the city...

Jim is quite the tour leader. Very knowledgeable about Boston and passed on lots of it’s history. We also ate extremely well. Everything from fresh fish to Italian, and ending Sunday evening at a Thai restaurant. All-in-all it was a great weekend...
Since I have been reading your posts from Michigan for a few years now, I would be pleased to meet in person, even to just get you started on a visit.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-23-20 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 04-23-20, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
If you would like to come to Boston, I have posted on a few occasions: Since I have been reading your posts from Michigan for a few years now, I would be pleased to meet in person, even to just get you started on a visit.
I am always in awe of how you can remember and quote from the past! Whenever we make it out there, I will let you know, for sure!
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Old 04-24-20, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
I am always in awe of how you can remember and quote from the past! Whenever we make it out there, I will let you know, for sure!
Thanks for that reply. Plans for this summer in particular are historically ambiguous. For my curiousity though, this question is still open:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
....BTW, if I may ask, where does your wife’s friend live? When discussing Boston with Detroiters, I like to find the equivalencies between neigborhoods and towns of those two cities.
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Old 04-25-20, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
Thanks for that reply. Plans for this summer in particular are historically ambiguous. For my curiousity though, this question is still open:
Sorry, completely missed that. I have no clue, TBH, and the wife doesn't have an address other than "she lives in Boston"

They're hospital buddies, she transferred from Ann Arbor to one of the major hospitals out there to experience the east coast and now works with organ transplant logistics.
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Old 04-25-20, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
..BTW, if I may ask, where does your wife’s friend live? When discussing Boston with Detroiters, I like to find the equivalencies between neigborhoods and towns of those two cities.
Originally Posted by jefnvk
Sorry, completely missed that. I have no clue, TBH, and the wife doesn't have an address other than "she lives in Boston"

They're hospital buddies, she transferred from Ann Arbor to one of the major hospitals out there to experience the east coast and now works with organ transplant logistics.
That’s interesting. In my introductory post to this thread I wrote:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
...Back in the 60’s in the Motor City, I had an “English Racer,’ and longed to tour at about age 14, but then joined the car culture. In Ann Arbor MI in the 70’s I really realized the utility of bicycles for commuting, and began touring on a five-speed Schwinn Suburban, but soon bought a Mercier as did my girlfriend, later my wife.

We toured in Michigan and Ontario….
I have previously previously posted to this other thread:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
”Enjoying a nice little back road”
Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg
Wow, would love a backdrop like that around here.
Hi @bobwysiwyg,

Noting that you post from Ann Arbor, MI with the big block
M, I have posted, “I recall Ann Arbor as a great place to cycle, though admittedly I do not recall any specific “enchanted roads”; (?) maybe Barton Drive.”

Besides cycling around town, favorite rides were round-trip along Huron River Drive to Dexter and back, and Whitmore Lake Road beyond North Territorial Road, and back.

My first weekend tour was out Pontiac Trail to visit relatives in Waterford Township, and back. I was a member of the then-fledgling Ann Arbor Bicycle Touring Society, and we did some weekend overnight trips to local state parts such as Pinckney. I also did a few rides back to the East side of Detroit via Plymouth Road.

In 2011, I participated in a Fifty-Plus Annual Ride (gathering) on the One Helluva Ride from Chelsea. The day before, we did a ride on Huron River Drive. Thanks for the opportunity to reminisce.

I have met several Michigan grads here in Boston, and I liken Ann Arbor to a distillate of many of the finer points about Boston, and imbued with Midwestern sensibilities.

Speaking of backdrops to cycling, in Boston (as well as Ann Arbor),
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
...I have ridden out West in the Desert, Rockies, and vast Plains, and while interesting and scenic, the views are unchanging for miles, and I really enjoy the intimate quirkiness of Metro Boston.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-25-20 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 04-26-20, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
That’s interesting. In my introductory post to this thread I wrote: I have previously previously posted to this other thread:
Yeah, I'll give you two guesses where tehy worked. Fun town!
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Old 04-26-20, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lanesplitter
I just thought of another one: drive to St Ignace, camp at the state park. Take the ferry to Mackinac Island, then take the ferry to the mainland . Take the bike trail towards Petoskey and continue to Traverse City. Plenty to see there--Old Mission peninsula; Torch Lake; wine and cherry country.
From TC, you could head east towards Grayling so you could take the NCRT to Mackinac City.

I never rode from TC to Grayling, but it's my experience that the roads up north that go east to west, have very little traffic. You could also see the Tunnel of Trees by taking a right on Gill Rd when you're on the trail to Petoskey. Keep going until you hit the lake and take a left. Take it until Petoskey, then you can get back on the trail to Charlevoix.
I have ridden most of this and think it is a terrific suggestion. I also never rode to Grayling. One additonal suggestion is to visit the restaurant Legs Inn in Cross Village. A one of a kind restaurant with a very interesting history.
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Old 04-27-20, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by debade
I have ridden most of this and think it is a terrific suggestion. I also never rode to Grayling. One additonal suggestion is to visit the restaurant Legs Inn in Cross Village. A one of a kind restaurant with a very interesting history.
That's a great suggestion! Everyone raves about it. I rode by it a bunch, admired its architecture, but always kept going. Every time it was too early in my trip for lunch. I lived on Mackinac Island for a summer and used to ride that way every couple of weeks. Northern Michigan is a bicyclist's nirvana, as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 04-27-20, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lanesplitter
That's a great suggestion! Everyone raves about it. I rode by it a bunch, admired its architecture, but always kept going. Every time it was too early in my trip for lunch. I lived on Mackinac Island for a summer and used to ride that way every couple of weeks. Northern Michigan is a bicyclist's nirvana, as far as I'm concerned.
We actually arrived at about 10:30 AM. We waited for their 11:00 opening. Then ate a full lunch even though we were not that hungry.
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Old 04-27-20, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by debade
We actually arrived at about 10:30 AM. We waited for their 11:00 opening. Then ate a full lunch even though we were not that hungry.
Funny you say that, because I distinctly remember seeing a large number of people in the parking lot, yet it couldn't have been later than 10:30. On my day off I'd ride that way and always left early to avoid the rush, not that Northern Michigan has much traffic, but the Tunnel of Trees definitely sees a fair number of cars in the afternoon. It's a comparatively narrow road as well.

At the end of the ToT is Harbor Springs Winery, which is where I'd always go. There's a farm, market, and a wonderful restaurant with stuff from their garden. I'd sit outside and watch kids launch squash from a slingshot to to a herd of waiting goats far off in the field. They'd all run over when new a kid would come, bucket of squash in hand, to quickly scarf them up, which for some reason was satisfying to watch while I scarfed my own lunch.

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Old 04-28-20, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by debade
I have ridden most of this and think it is a terrific suggestion. I also never rode to Grayling. One additonal suggestion is to visit the restaurant Legs Inn in Cross Village. A one of a kind restaurant with a very interesting history.
I think that is the place we stopped either on the DALMAC or the Zoo-De-Mack one year. Log cabin type place near the lake shore?
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Old 04-29-20, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
I think that is the place we stopped either on the DALMAC or the Zoo-De-Mack one year. Log cabin type place near the lake shore?
It's a log cabin but encrusted with rocks. Their view over the lake is incredible, but I'm sure on a nice day, it could be a long wait for one of those tables.

Those rides seem like a great time. When I worked on Mackinac Island, they essentially took over the island. To be around so many cyclists, instead of just tourists who happen to be on bikes, was really exciting.

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Old 04-29-20, 07:51 AM
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I’m from the Dayton/Xenia, Ohio area and would highly recommend our extensive bikeway system here in southwest Ohio. You can connect to lots of great towns like Yellow Springs, Waynesville, Morrow, Loveland, Cedarville, London - basically all the way up to Columbus or south to Cincinnati.

I do have a question about Michigan and Ann Arbor specifically: is it OK for me to travel there right now? I thought I heard something about the Michigan governor enacting more stringent quarantines there compared to Ohio. I’m just asking what the situation is there since my other hobby is my 2 channel audio “stereo”. I’m trying to get up to Overture Audio in Ann Arbor to have my Scottish Linn turntable get some upgrades. I have been looking forward to making this trip for a while.

I haven’t been on a bike trip in Michigan for quite a few years but have great memories of riding from Dayton to St. Ignace state park (1,200 miles round trip) back in the late 70’s when me and my buddy were teenagers. I especially enjoyed riding out to Muskegon from Battle Creek then up along Lake Michigan and staying in Hart, Ludington, Frankfort, Traverse City, Petoskey, Charlevoix, etc... one of my happiest memories is where we camped at a private campground on Torch Lake after a hot summer day and took an early evening bath/shampoo in the lake. That sandy bottom and how far you can walk out before the “dropoff” is something I always remember.

Another time (when I was about 22 and still single) I took a circuitous route from Dayton, Ohio to Halifax, NS via Detroit/Windsor, Ontario. I got stopped in customs on the Peace Bridge in early October and had no passport so I got a full shakedown. I removed all my items from my panniers, handlebar bag, tool bags and laid them out for the agents. They let me pass eventually so I proceeded down to London, Ontario to the Via Rail station where I purchased an inexpensive train ticket for an overnight trip up through Toronto then onward passing into Vermont then back into New Brunswick and eventually getting dropped off at midnight near a dock in Halifax. This was before cell phones or digital photography. The vision of the sun rising as the train made its way through New Brunswick and the sense of awe at the vistas that unveiled themselves as we exited numerous tunnels to view all the lakes and pine trees was like I went to heaven for a bit!

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Old 04-29-20, 09:05 AM
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I've been wanting to explore the rail trails of Ohio. I was on several when I rode from Michigan to Cape Cod. Ohio was good riding. It looks like you can get from Cincinnati to Cleveland mostly on rail trail, so, since I love rail trails so very much, I hoped to check it out someday.

As far as Ann Arbor is concerned, they're under a stay-at-home order until May 15. People can't travel to a vacation home. They have to pick one and stay.
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Old 04-29-20, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61
I do do have a question about Michigan and Ann Arbor specifically: is it OK for me to travel there right now? I thought I heard something about the Michigan governor enacting more stringent quarantines there compared to Ohio. I’m just asking what the situation is there since my other hobby is my 2 channel audio “stereo”. I’m trying to get up to Overture Audio in Ann Arbor to have my Scottish Linn turntable get some upgrades. I have been looking forward to making this trip for a while.
I'd be shocked if a specialty audio place is allowed to be open right now. No one is going to pull you over to see what you are doing, if that is what you are worried about, but there isn't a lot going on indoors here right now either.
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