Tubeless bearings, ceramic tires
06-03-19, 06:56 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Tubeless bearings, ceramic tires
Last year, I bought a nice 80's Miyata 712 and proceeded to refit it to suit me. For loose ball bearings, the price difference between ceramic and steel is small enough that I decided to see what the fuss was about. After lots of research, I decided the biggest bang for the buck is the drivetrain and put ceramic bearings in the bottom bracket. It is smoother, a little more free feeling, but not life changing. Before yesterday's ride, I changed the jockey wheels to Tacx ceramic bearing ones-that did make a huge difference in the feel of the drivetrain even though the jockey wheels I took out were only a year old. Last month I resurrected an old Shimano wheelset and went with ceramic bearings there, I couldn't tell you if there was any difference at all. But I also set up those wheels with the new Conti GP5000TL, and confirmed many of my previous observations about tubeless.
I already have a gravel bike that is tubeless (Stan's) on wider rims, and my observations from that setup were;
The first mounting is the easiest, if you get the tire mounted the first try you will be good to go. If you have to take the tire off, the bits of sealant on the tire bead and rim bead will put up a fight.
If you can't get it mounted with a floor pump, it's going to be a struggle.
For setting up the 25mm tires on the narrow road rims, I went with the orange tape and sealant and the results were;
Poor.
Did the front wheel first. Put on the tape, put on the tire, put in the sealant, pumped it up and it inflated the first time with zero issues.
After sitting overnight, it lost some pressure (to be expected) and I pumped it back up and went for a 5 minute ride in the parking lot before our group ride. Fifteen minutes later, it was flat in the parking lot, and pumping it up caused it to leak from the entire circumference of the bead. Threw a tube in and went for a ride.
Finally got it mounted at home with 3X the amount of sealant recommended. But it was a total mess as the bits of sealant in the bead let sealant leak out. The orange tape had to be replaced, the tube had caused it to fail at multiple spoke holes.
The next week I did the back tire, using all the knowledge I learned doing the front tire.
And it was all great, for 3 miles. No idea what the failure was, just suddenly the sensation of riding on the rim. Another throw in a tube and continue the ride.
In short, road tubeless still has a way to go. Is it the tire makers? Is it the wheel makers? If only there was an actual system for consistent measurement.
The GP5000s are pretty awesome. I've been riding the GP4000s for about 4 years now and didn't think there was any improvement needed. I hoped the new tires would make the old ones a little more budget friendly, but thought most of the hype was marketering wank. They are good, with or without a tube. The "Active Comfort Technology" which sounds to be pure wank must actually do something, my assometer says the ride is better at the same pressure (I haven't exploited the lower pressure option that tubeless gives you).
I already have a gravel bike that is tubeless (Stan's) on wider rims, and my observations from that setup were;
The first mounting is the easiest, if you get the tire mounted the first try you will be good to go. If you have to take the tire off, the bits of sealant on the tire bead and rim bead will put up a fight.
If you can't get it mounted with a floor pump, it's going to be a struggle.
For setting up the 25mm tires on the narrow road rims, I went with the orange tape and sealant and the results were;
Poor.
Did the front wheel first. Put on the tape, put on the tire, put in the sealant, pumped it up and it inflated the first time with zero issues.
After sitting overnight, it lost some pressure (to be expected) and I pumped it back up and went for a 5 minute ride in the parking lot before our group ride. Fifteen minutes later, it was flat in the parking lot, and pumping it up caused it to leak from the entire circumference of the bead. Threw a tube in and went for a ride.
Finally got it mounted at home with 3X the amount of sealant recommended. But it was a total mess as the bits of sealant in the bead let sealant leak out. The orange tape had to be replaced, the tube had caused it to fail at multiple spoke holes.
The next week I did the back tire, using all the knowledge I learned doing the front tire.
And it was all great, for 3 miles. No idea what the failure was, just suddenly the sensation of riding on the rim. Another throw in a tube and continue the ride.
In short, road tubeless still has a way to go. Is it the tire makers? Is it the wheel makers? If only there was an actual system for consistent measurement.
The GP5000s are pretty awesome. I've been riding the GP4000s for about 4 years now and didn't think there was any improvement needed. I hoped the new tires would make the old ones a little more budget friendly, but thought most of the hype was marketering wank. They are good, with or without a tube. The "Active Comfort Technology" which sounds to be pure wank must actually do something, my assometer says the ride is better at the same pressure (I haven't exploited the lower pressure option that tubeless gives you).
06-03-19, 07:03 AM
#2
Non omnino gravis
Are you sure the rims are tubeless compatible? I've never had a burp or bead break, ever, with any tire.
One layer of tape or two? With road pressures, 2 layers is required. I've had to put in a tube on a few occasions and never damaged the tape, so I'm curious.
One layer of tape or two? With road pressures, 2 layers is required. I've had to put in a tube on a few occasions and never damaged the tape, so I'm curious.
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06-03-19, 07:07 AM
#3
Senior Member
OP, tires and rims are tubeless? Its a must.
06-03-19, 01:49 PM
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why go tubeless for 25mm tires. No functional advantage. that size tire you should not be running so low you get pinch flats.
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Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
06-03-19, 02:01 PM
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Last year, I bought a nice 80's Miyata 712 and proceeded to refit it to suit me. For loose ball bearings, the price difference between ceramic and steel is small enough that I decided to see what the fuss was about. After lots of research, I decided the biggest bang for the buck is the drivetrain and put ceramic bearings in the bottom bracket. It is smoother, a little more free feeling, but not life changing. Before yesterday's ride, I changed the jockey wheels to Tacx ceramic bearing ones-that did make a huge difference in the feel of the drivetrain even though the jockey wheels I took out were only a year old. Last month I resurrected an old Shimano wheelset and went with ceramic bearings there, I couldn't tell you if there was any difference at all. But I also set up those wheels with the new Conti GP5000TL, and confirmed many of my previous observations about tubeless.
I already have a gravel bike that is tubeless (Stan's) on wider rims, and my observations from that setup were;
The first mounting is the easiest, if you get the tire mounted the first try you will be good to go. If you have to take the tire off, the bits of sealant on the tire bead and rim bead will put up a fight.
If you can't get it mounted with a floor pump, it's going to be a struggle.
For setting up the 25mm tires on the narrow road rims, I went with the orange tape and sealant and the results were;
Poor.
Did the front wheel first. Put on the tape, put on the tire, put in the sealant, pumped it up and it inflated the first time with zero issues.
After sitting overnight, it lost some pressure (to be expected) and I pumped it back up and went for a 5 minute ride in the parking lot before our group ride. Fifteen minutes later, it was flat in the parking lot, and pumping it up caused it to leak from the entire circumference of the bead. Threw a tube in and went for a ride.
Finally got it mounted at home with 3X the amount of sealant recommended. But it was a total mess as the bits of sealant in the bead let sealant leak out. The orange tape had to be replaced, the tube had caused it to fail at multiple spoke holes.
The next week I did the back tire, using all the knowledge I learned doing the front tire.
And it was all great, for 3 miles. No idea what the failure was, just suddenly the sensation of riding on the rim. Another throw in a tube and continue the ride.
In short, road tubeless still has a way to go. Is it the tire makers? Is it the wheel makers? If only there was an actual system for consistent measurement.
The GP5000s are pretty awesome. I've been riding the GP4000s for about 4 years now and didn't think there was any improvement needed. I hoped the new tires would make the old ones a little more budget friendly, but thought most of the hype was marketering wank. They are good, with or without a tube. The "Active Comfort Technology" which sounds to be pure wank must actually do something, my assometer says the ride is better at the same pressure (I haven't exploited the lower pressure option that tubeless gives you).
I already have a gravel bike that is tubeless (Stan's) on wider rims, and my observations from that setup were;
The first mounting is the easiest, if you get the tire mounted the first try you will be good to go. If you have to take the tire off, the bits of sealant on the tire bead and rim bead will put up a fight.
If you can't get it mounted with a floor pump, it's going to be a struggle.
For setting up the 25mm tires on the narrow road rims, I went with the orange tape and sealant and the results were;
Poor.
Did the front wheel first. Put on the tape, put on the tire, put in the sealant, pumped it up and it inflated the first time with zero issues.
After sitting overnight, it lost some pressure (to be expected) and I pumped it back up and went for a 5 minute ride in the parking lot before our group ride. Fifteen minutes later, it was flat in the parking lot, and pumping it up caused it to leak from the entire circumference of the bead. Threw a tube in and went for a ride.
Finally got it mounted at home with 3X the amount of sealant recommended. But it was a total mess as the bits of sealant in the bead let sealant leak out. The orange tape had to be replaced, the tube had caused it to fail at multiple spoke holes.
The next week I did the back tire, using all the knowledge I learned doing the front tire.
And it was all great, for 3 miles. No idea what the failure was, just suddenly the sensation of riding on the rim. Another throw in a tube and continue the ride.
In short, road tubeless still has a way to go. Is it the tire makers? Is it the wheel makers? If only there was an actual system for consistent measurement.
The GP5000s are pretty awesome. I've been riding the GP4000s for about 4 years now and didn't think there was any improvement needed. I hoped the new tires would make the old ones a little more budget friendly, but thought most of the hype was marketering wank. They are good, with or without a tube. The "Active Comfort Technology" which sounds to be pure wank must actually do something, my assometer says the ride is better at the same pressure (I haven't exploited the lower pressure option that tubeless gives you).
06-03-19, 06:01 PM
#6
Senior Member
I bought a set a wheels that happened to be tubeless compatible (Hed Belgium Plus) for the wider rims. Ran them with tubes for a year and when my tires wore out I got tubeless just because I could and wanted to see if there was a difference (price was same as new clinchers). I like the tubeless. I can run lower pressure without fear of pinches and the tires blow up a bit fatter than with tubes so I do notice some improvement in ride quality. Also small punctures and tube failures around valve stem, which caused me flats before, are no longer an issue. Both benefits, overall, are minor, but I am not spending anymore for tires so getting the benefits dont cost me anything over tires with tubes.
06-03-19, 06:05 PM
#7
Senior Member
My Hed Belgium + rims (21mm internal) set up fine with one layer of tape, but I have used tubes without damaging tape. I too suspect OPs “resurrected Shimano Wheelset” with “narrow rims” are not designed for tubeless.
06-03-19, 07:42 PM
#8
Non omnino gravis
06-05-19, 08:00 AM
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The front wheel is an Ultegra hub and Mavic Open Pro rim, not the Open Pro UST.
The rear wheel is a 105 hub and Velocity Dyad rim.
Neither of these rims claim to be tubeless compatible.
Interestingly, the narrow rim I have that does claim to be tubeless compatible (DT Swiss RR511) will not accept the GP5000 tire. No way, no how. It's hard to mount the GP4000 on that rim, always have to use a bead jack. The GP5000 took me the better part of an hour to get on the DT Swiss rim, at home, in the AC, using a bead jack and tire levers. There is no way this could be done in the field if you had to put in a tube. Once I conquered this beast, I took 1 look at the bead of the tire on the wheel and knew there was no way it was going to air up. The tire bead was in the valley of the rim, not even enough stretch to get one side to touch the bead of the rim. Maybe if you use this tire to pull your buddies mall crawler out of the flower bed he got stuck in it might be big enough to seat, but this is one of those areas where tire and rim manufacturers are going to have to figure out what size 700c really is.
As far as tape, I only used 1 layer as I hadn't seen anything calling for 2 on higher pressures, and 1 layer of yellow had no problems previously.
