dtrain

Wow - thx for running the experiment. Great news!

Jamminatrix

Awesome, thanks for sharing!

Granda72

so did you try this, and did it definitly work, as i am wanting to do the same thing

dtrain

I have not tried it. TRi_Crinale did.

Darth Lefty 

I wonder what this will mean for the future, if Tiagra will be a weird 10-speed not-SIS orphan, or if the new geometry will move down to 9x Sora, or some other alternative. The most recent lower MTB groups (M4000 and M3000) did not go 10x Dyna-Sys, they are both still 9x SIS.

gsa103

Hard to say. Definitely has unfortunate implications for those of us running 5700/6700, in that replacement parts will either be NOS or Sora and below.

Darth Lefty 

I'd be interested to know how long Shimano keeps making prior group parts, or if they're just selling through an older production run. There are a lot of premium 9-speed mountain and 10-speed road parts still for sale from the usual places, even though they don't show up in the current groups on Shimano's front pages. For example, XT went to 10-speed Dyna Sys in 2010-11 and to 11-speed last year... but here is RD-M772, XT-level 9-speed Shadow type RD, for sale from Nashbar via Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-M772-S...himano+rd-m772

Dr_UNIX

You're conflating cable pull ratio with inter-cog spacing. ST-4700 and RD-4700 have the same cable pull ratio as Shimano Road 11-speed. So you can mix any parts of the Road 11-speed groupos other than chain and cassette.

This is just like the pre-4700 world where an Ultegra 10-speed rear derailleur works with 8-speed shifters, and 8-speed rear derailleur works with pre-4700 road 10-speed shifters (and MTB 9-speed shifters). But based on how you've expressed it, these wouldn't work.

Bike Gremlin

I wrote a series of articles on my blog about compatibility and mix-matching:

Compatibility Archives - Cycle Gremlin

Brake compatibility is up next, when I get the time.


And, yes, 4700 RD has the same pull ratio as 11 speed Shimano road RDs. That means it will work with any 11 speed Shimano shifter, and with 4700 shifters - old 10 speed shifters will not pull enough cable for it to work. Of course, if using 4700 shifters, only 10 speed cassettes will do, while 11 speed shifters will work fine with 10 speed cassettes.

4700 shifters will work with 10 speed cassettes and 4700 RDs, as well as any Shimano road 11 speed RD.

If shifter number of speeds does not match the cassette number of speeds, alternate cable routing can help, but the more speeds, the more tightly spaced cogs, the less likely it is to work well.

Metaluna

How does Dyna-Sys fit into all this. Do the Dyna-Sys RD's have the same cable pull as 4700/5800 etc. shifters, like it was with the older 9/10 speed road groups and 9 speed MTB RDs?

And are the FDs still incompatible between mountain and road, like they were before?

Andy_K 

Dyna-Sys is completely different. I don't believe any Shimano STI shifters work with and Dyna-Sys RD without some sort of gadget in place to translate the cable pull. I'm not certain about front derailleurs, but I think they are also incompatible.

Wolf Tooth makes an adapter that lets you use a Dyna-Sys RD with 11-speed Shimano STI's. Gevenalle makes brake/shift levers for drop bars that work directly with Dyna-Sys RDs. I'm using the latter on one of my bikes with a Deore 615 Shadow Plus RD, and it's been working flawlessly.

Metaluna

Ahh, too bad. I was hoping Shimano would re-establish the old status quo of being able to interchange road and mountain RDs.

The Gevenalle stuff looks very nice though. I really like that you can get them with linear pull levers for V brakes and MTB disc brakes. They even have hydraulic levers (though I don't remember what system they're compatible with).

cs1

[QUOTE=dtrain;18393909]Yes, I understand that's true nearly across the board. But I think the new 4700 is now the exception. It uses ratios that more closely match the redesigned (11 speed) stuff; FD for example. So it's more likely to work with 5800 than 5700. The rear shifting is the larger mystery: likely a different cable pull from older 10 speed groups (like CafeVelo says)...but still 10 speed spacing which is different than 11.

Sounds like if I were to consider this, running a 4700 RD would be a safer bet.[/QUOT
I believe you are correct. Tiara uses the same actuation ratio as the 11 speed groups. It just shifts one less cog.

yipyipyip

Can someone confirm that the Tiagra 4700 series cassettes (CS-HG500-10) are interchangeable with prior road/MTB Shimano 10-speed cassettes (CS-HG62-10 etc)?

Edit: also: are the new cassettes on spiders, or can the individual cogs be removed?

RickFuze

i recently replaced a 4700 with an 11 speed 105 worked 100% ... i laughed.

mstateglfr 

A 4700 what? RD?...FD?...STI?

Dr_UNIX

This DEFINITELY works. I have a rear ST-4700 10-speed shifter with a RD-6800 ("11sp") rear Ultegra dérailleur on my cyclocross bike, with CS-6600 and CS-4600 cassettes.

It is the best 10-speed shifting I've experienced.

As has been said, the rear cable pull ratio of the ST-4700 and RD-4700 now match that of the Dura-Ace/Ultegra/105 11-speed mechanical groupos. Thus you can mix and match them. You could also use a ST-6800 and RD-4700 long cage.

carealto

But does it work the other way? 105 & Ultegra rear mechs are specced to max. 32t on the cassette - 4700 goes to 34t so offers something for steep hills. I imagine it would work over 10 gears, but has it got the range to cover 11? Anyone got the parts to try this?

Dr_UNIX

What "range" are you asking about? The amount of lateral movement of the RD-4700 (ie., toward/away from the rear hub)? Or something else?

EddNog

This is all pretty interesting; based on what all of you are saying, there is a distinct possibility that the new RD-8000 long cage, which is rated up to 34T (to match the new CS-HG800 11-34 cassette), is basically an Ultegra-fied RD-4700 long cage. Hmm...

-Ed

keyboardologist

Hello to all.

I know it's an old thread, but I just registered because I read some very nice compatibility specs but I'm not sure for some others not mentioned.

My bike has a full 4700 tiagra groupset, except from TRP Spyre-C mechanical disc brakes. I'm really happy with the whole Tiagra groupset but not with the brakes so I'm thinking changing to hydraulic.

Since I need at least to buy new hydraulic shifters and disc calipers, I'm also thinking on upgrading some parts of the groupset, so spending some cash in phases.

Just to make that clearer:


I was thinking to buy 105 (R7000) or Ultegra (R8000) shifters and calipers, and not the 4700. So to my first question that I believe I will have a positive answer:

1. Will the R7000 or R8000 shifters work with 4700 FD and RD, along with the current 10sp 11-32 CS-HG500 cassette?


If I don't upgrade the shifters now:

2. Will the Tiagra 4700 shifters handle an 105 (R7000) RD (or Ultegra R8000 RD) with an 11sp 11-34 CS-HG700-11 cassette. If not, that means that the 4700 shifters are locked to 10sp changes and not 11sp, since the cable pull ratio is the same on 4700, R7000, R8000 shifters when used with 4700, R7000, R8000 RDs. Please do not answer this just theoritical, I would like to have an answer from someone tested or using it, like


I know that they can handle an 105 (R7000) RD with 10sp 11-32 or 11-34 CS-HG500 cassette, but I'm happy with Tiagra mechs on the current bike and the only reason I would go for the upgrade is the 11sp cassette, so I don't need any other RD on my current 4700 if 11sp cassette cannot be applied.

Iride01 

keyboardologist Second dead thread you've dredged up. By the time others read down to what is a new question, there might be some confusion as to what the discussion really is.

Please, in the future, just start your own new topic. If another thread is pertinent, then just link it.

Anyhow.... #2 . No, I answered that in the other zombie thread you dug up.

Welcome to BF!

keyboardologist

Bike is on the heavy side (10kg/22lbs without pedals or anything and around 13/29 with pedals, bottles with water, bottle cages, bag with spare innertube, 4x lights, etc) and I'm also on the heavy side (89kg/196lbs).
I got some new pads and nice tuning and seems to work well and also get some good bite, but nothing special or close to a good set of 105 rim brake calipers tested on a dry day.
I hope tiagra hydraulic are like 105 rim brakes or better comparing with the power effort. It's not that the Spyres can't 'lock' the wheels or stop the bike, but you need some extra hand power effort that I cannot apply when riding on-top of the bars, specially with my weak left-hand.

keyboardologist

Thank you #2[/URL] 22222]Iride01 for both thread answers!
So if I want to upgrade to 11sp, I will have to start now with 11-sp shifters...
I really don't like creating new threads for the same topics, I believe that the title 'new Tiagra 4700 compatibility with 11s Shimano parts' is a superset of my question.

Iride01 

For some types of very specialized forums, that might be the norm. But this is a pretty high volume site and old with many long threads. I and others certainly don't want to hash through the potential 100's of response to the OP before getting to yours. And IMO, any thread with 5 or more answers is already ripe for going off topic. And using the OP's thread is considered by me and other as hijacking. Even if it's a similar issue. Though I admit I've hijacked very new threads in the past. But not Zombie threads.

Besides, your questions are very cut and dried. There is no supporting conversation needed to understand your questions.