Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-11-18, 05:23 PM   #26
Doge 
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2472 Post(s)
I got this Feb 7, 2018 (last week)

To all SCNCA Time Trial Cyclists,

FYI...

Team Velosport has disbanded and we will no longer be running the SCNCA ITT and TTT Championships at Lake Los Angeles.

We have enjoyed sponsoring these events and appreciate you support and participation in these championships over the past 13 years. Special thanks also to all our volunteers and officials who came out to the desert to help us run these successful events.

Good Luck and Best Wishes in your future cycling races and events.

Regards,

Marty Brown
Doge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-18, 05:24 PM   #27
Doge 
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2472 Post(s)
All that said, you could enroll in college. Their TTs are going well.
Doge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-18, 05:35 PM   #28
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
Thread Starter
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Bikes: 2016 Liv Lust, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Posts: 10,686
Mentioned: 535 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2783 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Actually, you can. You can put on an event. You just need to find a venue and apply for an event permit from USAC. The permit costs a couple hundred bucks.

Depending on the location you chose, you may need to get a permit from the city, which may cost money. You may also need police. Around here, the police tell you how many officers you need and for how long. And it's overtime pay, so it's usually around $50 an hour per officer. (We spent $5000 on police a few years ago for a Gran Fondo.) You will also need to come up with a purse. And after all that, you might make money from entry fees.
I realistically cannot put on a race by myself. Sorry, thatís not feasible with the nature of my first job and a separate business we run and a two hour a day commute. I would absolutely be willing to put in substantial effort through my cycling club but they are crit racers and have no interest in TTs, thereís little chance theyíd do it without incentive.

But is the problem really that thereís not enough promoters? Promoters are dropping out and races are disappearing because presumably the promoters are losing money. How is challenging a rank newby to put on a race really help anything, other than proving a point that itís hard to do and everyone complains?

What Iím getting at is the big picture behind the racing model. Why do specific races disappear? What can be done to change that? Whose job is it to try to understand this?

If I understood those things and felt like I could make a profit doing it, I still wouldnít personally have the time to do it. Itís like telling a triathlete that if they donít organize an Ironman within 3 years of taking up the sport, theyíre not doing enough and canít ask any questions.
Heathpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-18, 06:01 PM   #29
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
Thread Starter
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Bikes: 2016 Liv Lust, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Posts: 10,686
Mentioned: 535 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2783 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
The reason races are going away is because it is a lot of work for little reward. Promoters are in it for two reasons - they want to race or they want to profit from the race....

....The cost for putting on events keeps going up, and participation is going down.

We are losing state championships because no promoter wants to put on the events.
So what do you think the solution is? Just watch it happen and hope the races you personally enjoy hang on enough to continue to exist?

Does it seem like losing state championship races is something worth just shrugging over? That those races are not motivators that engage people in racing?

Again: when I say this stuff, people assume I am unrealistic and too dense to understand reality. Not so. I understand that races canít just happen because someone wants them. They have to be viable.

Iím asking: Whose responsibility is it to think about and attempt to address the viability of races? Not our LAs? Not USAC? No one?
Heathpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-18, 08:13 PM   #30
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,982
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
To answer the initial question - LAs came into existence because there was a bridge between the local representative (the "state rep" for us racers) and the USCF (at the time, meaning Colorado) that ended up a bit too much. The rep could upgrade you, could answer some basic questions, but for any race promoting questions you had to go to the feds, the USCF. And with one USCF person responding to a huge area, the USCF rep would get overwhelmed.

So the idea of a LA came into existence. They'd fill that gap. USA Cycling (by then) would answer the tough, maybe legal questions, like questions on permits or insurance or whatever. The LA would handle calendar questions, upgrades (except Cat 1), resolve conflicts (like between promoters), etc. The "state rep" was briefly volunteer (I was the CT rep for 3-4 years, which is documented in exactly zero places). NEBRA had five? state reps, strictly volunteer, then the reps were rolled into a paid "regional rep" position.

Our LA, NEBRA, receives money from primarily the license contribution. I think it's now $20 per license? The primary cost for NEBRA is paying the NEBRA rep (others include grants for Juniors for travel like to Nationals or Worlds, not sure what else). The 501(c)3 process was done by a racing lawyer for free. Even so the job is such that no one really wanted to do it once the long time rep stepped down - at the time based on budget the pay was in the $18-20,000 range. Someone privately put up $100,000 to pay a new rep for two years, initially intending to pay for just one year salary at $50,000, but then quickly realizing that the structure would not be in place to pay the same salary the second year. So this individual simply doubled their donation. I have no idea who this person is but it's an incredible act of selflessness. I think now there is a NEBRA fee to help raise that money, but I'm so out of the racing world I have no idea anymore.

Our LA rep does a bunch of things. He's trying to homogenize the race calendar so racers can expect certain categories, have some consistency among the events. He's put together a regional calendar (of events that fit the required categories) so that it encourages attendance to some of the further events. He helps answer questions on promoting, on upgrades, etc. It's a full time job.

I can tell you that I applied for the job and I'm very thankful I didn't get chosen (and it was down to two people when I got eliminated). It's a tough, tough job and I don't think I could do it justice with where I am right now, or where I was then.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. Itís a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. Thereís skills, thereís tactics Ö thereís all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-18, 08:35 PM   #31
carpediemracing
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Bikes: Tsunami Bikes
Posts: 14,982
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
As far as whose responsibility it is to make sure races get held?

To me it's USA Cycling, and, probably indirectly, would require some subsidies from the government.

In the old days a club could only wear its team kit (and sponsors) if they held a race in the last year they were in existence. If they didn't hold a race, no kit. This led to some interesting races where some larger clubs (I was in one of them) would show up at races in generic kits because their race got canceled or whatever.

There was also an "unattached" fee. If a racer showed up that didn't belong to a club, they'd be charged extra. Depending on how old school the promoter was, it could be substantial, like a $15 unattached fee on a $20 entry.

These two concepts led racers to try and join a viable club (one that held a race the prior year), and it led clubs to try and hold a race on a given year (so they could wear sponsor jerseys). The two needs worked together to get racers to join clubs, who would then leverage their membership to hold a race.

At some point the club-has-to-hold-a-race rule got slightly changed. Permits could list 5 assisting clubs on one permit. Suddenly a large number of clubs popped up that never held a race. They simply tagged onto a promoter, offered them something (money? volunteers?), and would be allowed to race in their kit.

(Another workaround was the "Monday afternoon roller race in February", or something like it. Clubs would hold an event in name only, with a real official, typically a roller race, typically during the week, usually during working hours ("first race starts at 1 PM") and have all of maybe 5 or 10 riders show up and mostly team members of the team. But it was an official event, it was on the calendar, so it worked.)

Then the whole "club must hold a race" disappeared. Now you can simply rename the club and still wear the kit.

What happened is that the symbiosis (?) disappeared, where clubs and racers needed each other. Now clubs don't need to promote races so they don't need racers (to fill out the volunteer pool), and racers don't need clubs (because no unattached penalty/stigma).

On top of that, and this is why my thought on subsidies, the costs of holding a race have skyrocketed. In the old days it was "the old days". No cops, very little need for organization, and you could have a crit. Unbelievable, actually. Now, with liability and instant news, everyone has to cover their assets. No landowner will let a crit happen on their property without massive insurance if at all. Towns need to find money in ever tightening budgets. No more donating police or whatever, no more "my brother is a cop, he'll help".

So USA Cycling can help by addressing some of the legal things, like liability. I don't know how, but it would be nice if USA Cycling could make promoters a bit less vulnerable to lawsuits.

I know in CT a sport is considered a high school sport (and therefore state supported) once a certain number of schools sign up. At one point it was just 6 high schools, and one teacher with grown up students scattered throughout the state managed to get 4 towns to commit to cycling as a scholastic sport. Now I think it's different but I don't know. Whatever, if the state suddenly made cycling a high school sport, that would be huge. If a high school held a race it would be very feasible to hold a full schedule of events, fulfilling the needs of the high school as well as older racers.

I held races for many years. The reason why I stopped was that I couldn't justify the significant losses anymore. When I could afford to lose $1000-4000 a year it was okay. One year I lost almost $10,000, that was a shock, that was fiscally difficult, especially since the years around it I was losing in the $4000 range. To be fair I had a few years where I made money, typically $1000-2000, with one banner year of about $9000.

But the other thing is the time. I figured out that I would put in about (conservatively estimating) 400 hours between Dec and mid April holding my races, with a huge number of hours dedicated to each of the 4-7 race weeks.

If promoting the races I promoted wasn't so hard/costly then someone would have started it up right away. But they didn't, for years now, and it's because it's very difficult to do.

I have no idea how to make promoting easier. Give a kickback to the promoter? $2000 per industrial park crit? $5000 per road race or downtown crit? I'm sure that would help but the reality is that there simply isn't enough money to do that. It really ought to be more, and any less and it'd be sort of a weak joke. The downtown crit and the RR I helped with burned through $30k in a day just for the venue (police, permits, etc). I'd burn through $8-10k a day for an industrial park crit (closed loop, only one or two cops).

I need to go to sleep but those are some thoughts.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. Itís a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. Thereís skills, thereís tactics Ö thereís all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-18, 11:11 PM   #32
Doge 
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2472 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post

I’m asking: Whose responsibility is it to think about and attempt to address the viability of races? Not our LAs? Not USAC? No one?
I believe the correct answer is nobody in your list.
Nobody owns it. Used to be clubs. I'd add this is similar to what I saw in soccer.

You may recall I was suggesting a re-vamp of categories a while back. The reason was for promoters to fill races. Several groups have similar speed. I didn't and don't see an issue having them all race each other - kinda fondo like and fill up the course a little bit. Many races that take 10-12 hours could be done in 6. That would save money. I think the category thing is kinda obsolete anyway and once riders achieve that category often quit.

That is another stat we didn't discuss, but while some racers are as old as dirt, many race a short while, get their upgrade goal and quit. An obvious thing would be to find out how to keep them in the sport. Again - MTB, cx and to a much lessor degree, track, are taking some away.

Last edited by Doge; 02-11-18 at 11:23 PM.
Doge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-18, 07:37 AM   #33
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 5,605
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 899 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I believe the correct answer is nobody in your list.
Nobody owns it. Used to be clubs.
This is correct. No one owns it, and no one wants to do the work.

Most of us are working professionals who race bikes as a hobby. We all have responsibilities, and we fit in cycling in between. But if you want to see a race happen, sometimes it's up to you to make it happen.

As I mentioned, we've held a small winter race series for close to 10 years now. We are fortunate that we can hold it on a small, oval, lightly banked, auto race track, which eliminates the need for city or county permits and police. It makes the venue cost low.

A couple of years ago, the track we used lost its management company. I spent my spare time tracking down the owner to arrange access. Then I reached out to other clubs who also used the track to put them in touch with him so they could hold races there too. It took a lot of my time to get it done, but I did it because I wanted the races to happen.

That said, I've since stepped down from my team's board. After running the club for three years, I was worn out.

People aren't coming out to race. Why is another question with a lot of theories but no solid answers. If the race isn't at least breaking even, why continue putting it on.

I mentioned a Gran Fondo earlier. We did that for three years. The first year we spent a ton on cops and made about $2,000. The second year, we added a raffle and moved it where we didn't need police. We made about $1,500, but turnout declined. The third year, we made about $1,000, and turnout declined again. The guy who organized the last year said he would have gladly have donated $1,000 to us to not have done the work. It just wasn't worth the effort.
topflightpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-18, 09:04 AM   #34
Doge 
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2472 Post(s)
Wave of what is cool, or not, is hard to explain.
Early 80s in SoCal there were some Fondos that were really big and "races". Tecate->Ensinada was huge, north of 5,000. Rosirito->Encinda got up to 10,000. Ten years later Tecate->Encinada maybe had 400 start. This was all pre-drug deaths and Mexico mostly meant you might have to pay a bribe for a false traffic ticket.
Then the 84 Olympics came to LA, actually cycling to Mission Viejo (30 min ride from me) and the amount of Lycra quadrupled. Racing became huge. Masters 40+ fields still had just a few riders, but the 20 year old fields we big. I heard the junior fields were getting smaller. We (20-30s) raced at the Naval training center, later the Marine base, all over. Then after 3-4 years it started drying up a bit.

About 2007 when I started my kid, the youth part was rather small. It seemed to swell a bit around 2013 and looked healthy. The USA 2015 was the worlds best junior cycling talent. Now those numbers are going down too.

Why? I really don't know for sure, but I mentioned a bunch of things. I forgot to mention we are chasing Europe rather than enjoying our own sport and races are too long...but I expect I could make a long list of problems. I just don't know if they are reasons. I tie most of this to the baby boomers, their kids, Lance and LA 84 wave.

TTs are the most important cycling discipline to this family. Starting as a teen I did them in Kenya, my wife both single and tandem and my kid. I love tuning the stuff even when others ride.
Unless part of a stage race, where they are ideal, tt takes a road and a clock to do your own. Now - we have Strava. I get that it is nice to have an award, but with USA giving out ~200 jerseys to National Champions, awards are not as meaningful as they once were. At the district level less so. I'm not saying that is it either, but just another thing. I don't see stand alone TTs coming back.

Last edited by Doge; 02-12-18 at 09:58 AM.
Doge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-18, 11:46 AM   #35
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
Thread Starter
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Bikes: 2016 Liv Lust, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Posts: 10,686
Mentioned: 535 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2783 Post(s)
Well I just had an interesting conversation with the former promoter of the race that started me thinking along the lines of this thread.


It turns out...


The race is profitable...
The permit from the county is free...
No police presence is required but the local sheriffs tend to swing by... for free...


And the biggest expenses are porta potties and USAC officials!
Heathpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-18, 11:58 AM   #36
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
Thread Starter
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Bikes: 2016 Liv Lust, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Posts: 10,686
Mentioned: 535 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2783 Post(s)
@carpediemracing, thanks for that very interesting reply


It makes sense to me that the most sustainable race model through fat times and lean is that you rely on clubs to put on events, go back to the old model. It didn't even occur to me that a side effect of the old system was needing plenty of club members so that you'd have enough volunteers to both run the race and race the race (if possible to do both). In fat times, sure let promoters step in if there is profit to be made (or let the clubs keep the races if that's what they want). In lean times, you still have races and people who are willing to donate a day or a week of their time, depending on their level of involvement with the race.
Heathpack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-18, 12:15 PM   #37
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Dolan PreCursa, Cdale Slice
Posts: 2,949
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doge View Post

About 2007 when I started my kid, the youth part was rather small. It seemed to swell a bit around 2013 and looked healthy. The USA 2015 was the worlds best junior cycling talent. Now those numbers are going down too.

Why? I really don't know for sure, but I mentioned a bunch of things. I forgot to mention we are chasing Europe rather than enjoying our own sport and races are too long...but I expect I could make a long list of problems. I just don't know if they are reasons. I tie most of this to the baby boomers, their kids, Lance and LA 84 wave.
.
Not to stray too far from the origin of the thread but my opinion on Jr participation is that the competition is 1) The chase for college scholarships, a big factor in a lot of things for parents. 2) The "Professional" little league player. Time and financial demands making parents/kids full time in a single sport from an early age (related to #1).

I think you were on to something (CDR as well) with the impact from the demise of Clubs responsibilities & unattached rider fee's. Almost immediately you started seeing the 5 to 10 person Masters Clubs appear, with no obligation to the sport. Not sure what lead to the USCF abandoning this model for grass roots, races at the lowest level.
Voodoo76 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-18, 12:29 PM   #38
Doge 
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2472 Post(s)
I didn't see college a motivator for junior cyclist parents. True, all colleges like a story. Many of the top juniors skipped college and are trying pro and are at schools that cycling likely had little to do with paying for anything or getting them in. It depends.
This sounds snobby - maybe it is, but if the kid can leverage a name university it makes sense to do so. Your top ranking prestige universities almost all have NCAA sports, and cycling does nothing to get you in or pay, other than it is a story. Parents looking for college by putting their kids in sports (like soccer parents - I was one, and used it) are shooting higher. They would use an NCAA sport first. There is a big difference between NCAA schools and cycling schools as far as prestige and value of using the sport. When we wanted to use a sport - we switch junior off the bike to rowing and started shopping Ivy's, Naval Academy, Georgetown... . When he missed cycling too much, we had figured that ship had sailed and mom and dad were going to write checks and see if the story would get him in. We did not much shop the cycling schools. The military academies - esp Air Force, like athletes. Other than that, I don't see cycling gets much for getting into a prestige University - not like soccer or a NCAA sport can.

Last edited by Doge; 02-12-18 at 05:25 PM.
Doge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-18, 09:53 AM   #39
cold turtle
neo-poster
 
cold turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: USA
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix Evo
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
I donít have an ax to grind per se. The issue that led to me communicating with the LA president has to do with the State TT. The date was changed significantly from the traditional date of the race but it was not put on the calendar. Iím annoyed because itís 6 weeks earlier than it was expected to be, I wonít be ready in the way I would have been, and will be on a cycling vacation immediately prior that canít be rescheduled.
Just be glad they didn't schedule your state championship the same weekend as Elite Nationals, which our LA has done.
cold turtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-18, 01:27 PM   #40
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Bikes: Felt AR
Posts: 1,237
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 660 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cold turtle View Post
Just be glad they didn't schedule your state championship the same weekend as Elite Nationals, which our LA has done.
We had a promoter trying to work around masters nationals, and in the past elite nats as well. But unless you're in the same region, and possibly even then, too, I don't think elite nats should take priority in determing whether a local race is on the same date. That's only 1s, which is only one part of one field (possibly some masters). I don't think it's a big enough draw when it only pertains to so few people.

So anyway, our state crit is now the same weekend as Tulsa Tough so it wouldn't conflict with masters nats. I guess the case could be made for either.
rubiksoval is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-18, 01:56 PM   #41
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Posts: 5,032
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 898 Post(s)
In Oregon the LA is OBRA. OBRA considers it's function, and indeed its reason for existence, to support racing in Oregon at all levels. They have paired up with USCycling/UCI when they have felt that was consistent with their mission but have always been willing to step away when they felt it was not. I don't race so I cannot say where they are now but I think they/USCycling are currently in sync.

They have at times been a thorn in the USCycling side; a very healthy local association with a strong racing scene that wouldn't toe any lines that didn't serve their races and riders. I know the Cascade Classic which should be on of America's great races has suffered from the lack of unity and sponsorship uncertainty this has created.

Ben
79pmooney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-18, 05:31 PM   #42
Doge 
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Posts: 8,554
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2472 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
... I don't think elite nats should take priority in determing whether a local race is on the same date. That's only 1s, which is only one part of one field (possibly some masters)...
Unless you mean pros, which I agree with your premise, Elite Nationals are usually:
Men:Cat 1, Cat Pro12 U23, Pro123 17-18, 15-16
Women: ProCrit, and similar.

You have under age 15 to Pros that could participate and win a district/LA.
Doge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:33 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION