Living with/without a car
#51
Prefers Cicero
I didn't say it to start a discussion on the topic. I was just pointing out that 'overpopulation' can and does get used as a scapegoat for any social problem that people don't want to look at more closely.
E.g. "X wouldn't be a problem if the world has less people in it," and then that's the end of it for them.
E.g. "X wouldn't be a problem if the world has less people in it," and then that's the end of it for them.
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Maybe, but if so the severity of overpopulation is relative to the maximum sustainable carrying capacity of the planet, and that depends on the technologies and lifestyles people use and how they utilize and conserve resources . . . but let's not get the thread moved to P&R.
#54
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,973
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
I think Florida, along with Texas and California, are the biggest population-growth states; so they really need to increase their non-driving population relative to the driving population. Ideally the driving population would shrink and roads narrowed back to the way they were in, say, the 1950s. This could be achieved by smarter development with more density in certain areas where people can LCF. Really this is already happening in cities such as Orlando, which has many nice bike trails, but too many people have the habit/expectation of driving whenever they want, which fills up the roads and drives demand for more asphalt and highways, along with ever-progressing deforestation and the corresponding conflicts between environmentalists and pro-development people. It would be great if LCF was part of a multi-pronged strategy to relieve environmental angst by combining reforestation and conservation with smarter land-use within inhabited areas.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,239
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18415 Post(s)
Liked 15,547 Times
in
7,330 Posts
Hello. What's this thread about?
P.S. I have not contributed to the earth's population other than by being born, which I had nothing to do with.
P.S. I have not contributed to the earth's population other than by being born, which I had nothing to do with.
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,491
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7652 Post(s)
Liked 3,475 Times
in
1,836 Posts
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
agreed. I can only hope central florida overall as well as Tampa does not turn into more urban or suburban sprawl as it has some really nice state roads and back roads great for cycling. Once a lizard or salamander so common was on my bike for a 2 hour ride the whole way There is a working trail that takes you from Tampa area all the way to Melbourne so from west of Florida Gulf Coast all the way to east coast of the state on the Atlantic side.
Do you think its because people WON'T ride a bike or they CAN'T due to not wanting to improve fitness, sweat etc. I feel like some people find it is beneath them and its quite sad.
Do you think its because people WON'T ride a bike or they CAN'T due to not wanting to improve fitness, sweat etc. I feel like some people find it is beneath them and its quite sad.
Many people simply don't think it's realistic that the driving culture will ever change. They would figure everything from war to increasing arrests/imprisonment to opioid deaths would increase before the general public would alter their transportation behavior. So while they don't want to be one of the casualties of the automotive economy, they don't have enough faith in the power of their own choice/action to invest the effort it takes to go car-free. Most of them simply don't even think about the broader connection between land-development, environmental protection, economic carrying capacity, politics, the transportation culture, and the many 'normal' risks people face. They just go about their lives and act surprised when something bad happens. They can't imagine things could get better if people all put effort into changing for the better.
#60
Senior Member
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
It would be a shame if you were not some sort of author or writer. You took my exact sentiments and eloquently persuaded it into words. I agree completely though. Even something as autonomous as grocery stores etc. If we all stopped shopping they would be forced to change entire way grocery stores cater to customers etc. This applies to all aspects of society. This conversation could go into a deep rabbit hole real quick so I will just say I do think its human psyche as well as industrialization and construction of society that fosters this dumbing down of the human mind where expected norm is embraced and comfortable. Often the "changes" that are made or action taken by many humans often is an erroneous one but one they feel they are empowered to do. The truth is if we all united no malevolent force or injustice nor structure could stop us. Instead, cars would rather cut off cyclists and such as a way of utilizing this potentiality of union as a power struggle and it gets a more negative and selfish expression instead. Its like kick the little guy cause one feels too powerless to fight the real bully...
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
It would be a shame if you were not some sort of author or writer. You took my exact sentiments and eloquently persuaded it into words. I agree completely though. Even something as autonomous as grocery stores etc. If we all stopped shopping they would be forced to change entire way grocery stores cater to customers etc. This applies to all aspects of society. This conversation could go into a deep rabbit hole real quick so I will just say I do think its human psyche as well as industrialization and construction of society that fosters this dumbing down of the human mind where expected norm is embraced and comfortable. Often the "changes" that are made or action taken by many humans often is an erroneous one but one they feel they are empowered to do. The truth is if we all united no malevolent force or injustice nor structure could stop us. Instead, cars would rather cut off cyclists and such as a way of utilizing this potentiality of union as a power struggle and it gets a more negative and selfish expression instead. Its like kick the little guy cause one feels too powerless to fight the real bully...
#64
In Real Life
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 52,152
Bikes: Lots
Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3203 Post(s)
Liked 596 Times
in
329 Posts
It would be a shame if you were not some sort of author or writer. You took my exact sentiments and eloquently persuaded it into words. I agree completely though. Even something as autonomous as grocery stores etc. If we all stopped shopping they would be forced to change entire way grocery stores cater to customers etc. This applies to all aspects of society. This conversation could go into a deep rabbit hole real quick so I will just say I do think its human psyche as well as industrialization and construction of society that fosters this dumbing down of the human mind where expected norm is embraced and comfortable. Often the "changes" that are made or action taken by many humans often is an erroneous one but one they feel they are empowered to do. The truth is if we all united no malevolent force or injustice nor structure could stop us. Instead, cars would rather cut off cyclists and such as a way of utilizing this potentiality of union as a power struggle and it gets a more negative and selfish expression instead. Its like kick the little guy cause one feels too powerless to fight the real bully...
That's an interesting approach ... I wonder why someone hasn't thought of it before.
__________________
Rowan
My fave photo threads on BF
Century A Month Facebook Group
Machka's Website
Photo Gallery
Rowan
My fave photo threads on BF
Century A Month Facebook Group
Machka's Website
Photo Gallery
#66
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,973
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
easy... tell amtrak to stop being greedy and open their trains/tracks for a more public domain and proper usage or a similar setup to a flat fee of 5-10$. Trains are a very efficient form of transportation even older ones that are not as clean energy using like coal etc. Trains come every 45 mins or so and even faster for light rail style that do not use fuel. Between trains, and buses, and bikes I do not see any reason for a car. If for some reason a car is needed I think an app like uber could be used but it would organize a carpool for a specific purpose (and there are already apps like this) and also there would be a limitation so a person would have 3 of these passes to use a week. Something like that. 50% OF driving in my opinion is out of leisure and boredom and if that is the case just get a bike lol
Point is - it is very possible but does require some lessening of greed.
There are already cities doing quite well and its just a matter of stopping the car usage. NYC could easily be car-free but I think it takes more so legislation than convincing people
Point is - it is very possible but does require some lessening of greed.
There are already cities doing quite well and its just a matter of stopping the car usage. NYC could easily be car-free but I think it takes more so legislation than convincing people
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
easy... tell amtrak to stop being greedy and open their trains/tracks for a more public domain and proper usage or a similar setup to a flat fee of 5-10$. Trains are a very efficient form of transportation even older ones that are not as clean energy using like coal etc. Trains come every 45 mins or so and even faster for light rail style that do not use fuel. Between trains, and buses, and bikes I do not see any reason for a car. If for some reason a car is needed I think an app like uber could be used but it would organize a carpool for a specific purpose (and there are already apps like this) and also there would be a limitation so a person would have 3 of these passes to use a week. Something like that. 50% OF driving in my opinion is out of leisure and boredom and if that is the case just get a bike lol
Point is - it is very possible but does require some lessening of greed.
There are already cities doing quite well and its just a matter of stopping the car usage. NYC could easily be car-free but I think it takes more so legislation than convincing people
Point is - it is very possible but does require some lessening of greed.
There are already cities doing quite well and its just a matter of stopping the car usage. NYC could easily be car-free but I think it takes more so legislation than convincing people
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/amtrak-tracks-late-trains
Do you know how Uber and Lyft work? Private parties sign up to pick up people in their private cars for a fee. No private cars no Uber.
I am not sure you understand how legislation works either.
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,491
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7652 Post(s)
Liked 3,475 Times
in
1,836 Posts
When someone says "50 percent of driving in my opinion is out or leisure or boredom ..." right there is when I stop reading.
The hardest thing to find is an idealist who is also a realist. The easiest thing to find is a person who makes stuff up and believes it then to be true. All I have to do to find them is go to any web forum.
The hardest thing to find is an idealist who is also a realist. The easiest thing to find is a person who makes stuff up and believes it then to be true. All I have to do to find them is go to any web forum.
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
Can't tell if that is a good or bad thing but I will take it as a major compliment considering the thoughtful and profetic content and style of TandemPower's speech and writing.
So you presume that people in cars HAVE to be in them? I am not disrespecting you but simply asking. They simply could not be on the bus, train, or bike?
You might think that is a realistic question but only if you haven't pondered the most common answer, because the majority of people don't want to. They will work extra hours just so they don't have to.
I am very aware of suburb and rural area situation but the answer is to improve central routing of people thru public trans not to have people feel the need to buy more cars. It goes back to the main quote of the century. Its cheaper to move people.
It is easier to move cattle and chickens by shoving them shoulder to shoulder in a truck but I would imagine people would rather not travel that way.
Why do we import produce, take trips to tropical areas etc when we could simply move people there that want to go.
I am having a hard time believing you believe it would be better to move people to where the food is than move food to where people are? You do realize big cities do no grow their own food?
I live in South Florida where people have no idea where they are going and there are tourists and snowbirds everywhere I stand by my statement and I am quite the realist actually. I am not a mathematician so forgive me for a random percentage but I still abide by my statement and dont expect others to understand.
Do you know what portion of the economy of south Florida relies on with Snowbirds and tourists. Without a tax base you cannot afford to build infrastructure you know?
It is the same thing for people like the nyc mayor who has a private car take him to a gym 10 miles from his home. He could have literally biked there instead of driving to use aerobic equipment.
He could have taken a helicopter or armored car as well. One of the things that make this a great place to live, we have the freedom to move around anyway we want.
I never claimed to be a government worker or have the knowledge therein and I am not speaking from a soap box nor with entitlement or authority. I am just simply passing a skeleton structure of what COULD BE.
You do know realism requires a realistic solution? What could be requires a plan supported by a group that has the support to do something. Otherwise it is called dreaming.
I appreciate the amtrak article as I was under the impression they or the states they pass thru, own the tracks. Kind of like how in california the metrolink shares the same rails as Amtrak but I think Amtrak leases them from Metrolink or the state.
And now you know your plan won't work.
As for uber I stand by my statement. I never said to recycle every single car and erase them from history!
And if you limit the people or times someone can use their service how long do you expect the service to be available?
I said stop idiots from driving to a store 3 miles away and these folks are often all over the road. For example Why not have 10 cars to go downtown and people carpool in them rather than have 50 individual people to go the same direction one person in one car x 50.
Think that through, who's 50 cars, who's insurance? How many will be going the same place at the same time? How will the people get back?
If you want my opinion it seems like the real reason people dont like to carpool is they dont want to be bothered sharing with people. I took public transportation to middle and high school so I do not mind riding a public bus let alone a transportation means with people whom could possibly be not my style - still there is depth and value in every single creature so i like to engage with people regardless.
Yes there is value in every person. There is value in their privacy as well isn't there? But thanks for your opinion, it is immaterial as to why someone would not care to ride the bus however. Their opinions obviously are different.
It does not have to be uber it can be buses. Do you not understand my point? The goal is to stop people from thinking their car is a tank and they can drive anywhere at any time and no respect for pedestrians and cyclists and such.
Who's goal exactly? Can they take their car if they have respect for pedestrians and cyclists? Car to guess the percentages of people that have a car "and" are pedestrians and cyclists? Do you think it is more than 50 percent?
My question is what is to prevent people from taking public trans? If its a slowness or time issue we can increase the frequency by 1 so if a bus comes every hour we can make it come every 30 mins. The power is in your hands...
So you presume that people in cars HAVE to be in them? I am not disrespecting you but simply asking. They simply could not be on the bus, train, or bike?
You might think that is a realistic question but only if you haven't pondered the most common answer, because the majority of people don't want to. They will work extra hours just so they don't have to.
I am very aware of suburb and rural area situation but the answer is to improve central routing of people thru public trans not to have people feel the need to buy more cars. It goes back to the main quote of the century. Its cheaper to move people.
It is easier to move cattle and chickens by shoving them shoulder to shoulder in a truck but I would imagine people would rather not travel that way.
Why do we import produce, take trips to tropical areas etc when we could simply move people there that want to go.
I am having a hard time believing you believe it would be better to move people to where the food is than move food to where people are? You do realize big cities do no grow their own food?
I live in South Florida where people have no idea where they are going and there are tourists and snowbirds everywhere I stand by my statement and I am quite the realist actually. I am not a mathematician so forgive me for a random percentage but I still abide by my statement and dont expect others to understand.
Do you know what portion of the economy of south Florida relies on with Snowbirds and tourists. Without a tax base you cannot afford to build infrastructure you know?
It is the same thing for people like the nyc mayor who has a private car take him to a gym 10 miles from his home. He could have literally biked there instead of driving to use aerobic equipment.
He could have taken a helicopter or armored car as well. One of the things that make this a great place to live, we have the freedom to move around anyway we want.
I never claimed to be a government worker or have the knowledge therein and I am not speaking from a soap box nor with entitlement or authority. I am just simply passing a skeleton structure of what COULD BE.
You do know realism requires a realistic solution? What could be requires a plan supported by a group that has the support to do something. Otherwise it is called dreaming.
I appreciate the amtrak article as I was under the impression they or the states they pass thru, own the tracks. Kind of like how in california the metrolink shares the same rails as Amtrak but I think Amtrak leases them from Metrolink or the state.
And now you know your plan won't work.
As for uber I stand by my statement. I never said to recycle every single car and erase them from history!
And if you limit the people or times someone can use their service how long do you expect the service to be available?
I said stop idiots from driving to a store 3 miles away and these folks are often all over the road. For example Why not have 10 cars to go downtown and people carpool in them rather than have 50 individual people to go the same direction one person in one car x 50.
Think that through, who's 50 cars, who's insurance? How many will be going the same place at the same time? How will the people get back?
If you want my opinion it seems like the real reason people dont like to carpool is they dont want to be bothered sharing with people. I took public transportation to middle and high school so I do not mind riding a public bus let alone a transportation means with people whom could possibly be not my style - still there is depth and value in every single creature so i like to engage with people regardless.
Yes there is value in every person. There is value in their privacy as well isn't there? But thanks for your opinion, it is immaterial as to why someone would not care to ride the bus however. Their opinions obviously are different.
It does not have to be uber it can be buses. Do you not understand my point? The goal is to stop people from thinking their car is a tank and they can drive anywhere at any time and no respect for pedestrians and cyclists and such.
Who's goal exactly? Can they take their car if they have respect for pedestrians and cyclists? Car to guess the percentages of people that have a car "and" are pedestrians and cyclists? Do you think it is more than 50 percent?
My question is what is to prevent people from taking public trans? If its a slowness or time issue we can increase the frequency by 1 so if a bus comes every hour we can make it come every 30 mins. The power is in your hands...
Last edited by Mobile 155; 02-23-18 at 04:53 PM.
#72
Prefers Cicero
Can't tell if that is a good or bad thing but I will take it as a major compliment considering the thoughtful and profetic content and style of TandemPower's speech and writing.
So you presume that people in cars HAVE to be in them? I am not disrespecting you but simply asking. They simply could not be on the bus, train, or bike? I am very aware of suburb and rural area situation but the answer is to improve central routing of people thru public trans not to have people feel the need to buy more cars. It goe s back to the main quote of the century. Its cheaper to move people. Why do we import produce, take trips to tropical areas etc when we could simply move people there that want to go.
I live in South Florida where people have no idea where they are going and there are tourists and snowbirds everywhere I stand by my statement and I am quite the realist actually. I am not a mathematician so forgive me for a random percentage but I still abide by my statement and dont expect others to understand.
It is the same thing for people like the nyc mayor who has a private car take him to a gym 10 miles from his home. He could have literally biked there instead of driving to use aerobic equipment.
I never claimed to be a government worker or have the knowledge therein and I am not speaking from a soap box nor with entitlement or authority. I am just simply passing a skeleton structure of what COULD BE.
I appreciate the amtrak article as I was under the impression they or the states they pass thru, own the tracks. Kind of like how in california the metrolink shares the same rails as Amtrak but I think Amtrak leases them from Metrolink or the state.
As for uber I stand by my statement. I never said to recycle every single car and erase them from history!
I said stop idiots from driving to a store 3 miles away and these folks are often all over the road. For example Why not have 10 cars to go downtown and people carpool in them rather than have 50 individual people to go the same direction one person in one car x 50. If you want my opinion it seems like the real reason people dont like to carpool is they dont want to be bothered sharing with people. I took public transportation to middle and high school so I do not mind riding a public bus let alone a transportation means with people whom could possibly be not my style - still there is depth and value in every single creature so i like to engage with people regardless.
It does not have to be uber it can be buses. Do you not understand my point? The goal is to stop people from thinking their car is a tank and they can drive anywhere at any time and no respect for pedestrians and cyclists and such.
My question is what is to prevent people from taking public trans? If its a slowness or time issue we can increase the frequency by 1 so if a bus comes every hour we can make it come every 30 mins. The power is in your hands...
So you presume that people in cars HAVE to be in them? I am not disrespecting you but simply asking. They simply could not be on the bus, train, or bike? I am very aware of suburb and rural area situation but the answer is to improve central routing of people thru public trans not to have people feel the need to buy more cars. It goe s back to the main quote of the century. Its cheaper to move people. Why do we import produce, take trips to tropical areas etc when we could simply move people there that want to go.
I live in South Florida where people have no idea where they are going and there are tourists and snowbirds everywhere I stand by my statement and I am quite the realist actually. I am not a mathematician so forgive me for a random percentage but I still abide by my statement and dont expect others to understand.
It is the same thing for people like the nyc mayor who has a private car take him to a gym 10 miles from his home. He could have literally biked there instead of driving to use aerobic equipment.
I never claimed to be a government worker or have the knowledge therein and I am not speaking from a soap box nor with entitlement or authority. I am just simply passing a skeleton structure of what COULD BE.
I appreciate the amtrak article as I was under the impression they or the states they pass thru, own the tracks. Kind of like how in california the metrolink shares the same rails as Amtrak but I think Amtrak leases them from Metrolink or the state.
As for uber I stand by my statement. I never said to recycle every single car and erase them from history!
I said stop idiots from driving to a store 3 miles away and these folks are often all over the road. For example Why not have 10 cars to go downtown and people carpool in them rather than have 50 individual people to go the same direction one person in one car x 50. If you want my opinion it seems like the real reason people dont like to carpool is they dont want to be bothered sharing with people. I took public transportation to middle and high school so I do not mind riding a public bus let alone a transportation means with people whom could possibly be not my style - still there is depth and value in every single creature so i like to engage with people regardless.
It does not have to be uber it can be buses. Do you not understand my point? The goal is to stop people from thinking their car is a tank and they can drive anywhere at any time and no respect for pedestrians and cyclists and such.
My question is what is to prevent people from taking public trans? If its a slowness or time issue we can increase the frequency by 1 so if a bus comes every hour we can make it come every 30 mins. The power is in your hands...
#73
Prefers Cicero
Good point, so put it to a vote and see what happens. See who wants to buy more buses and hire more drivers. I think you might discover the "we" you are talking about will be voting as "them." The why not of public transportation has been answered many times in this forum. To really work it has to take people from where they are to where they want to go when they want to go there. That is the main flaw you might need to solve.
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Being people that prefer the convenience of a car or the pleasure of a bicycle ride. Many people have multiple destinations, shopping needs, are not close to bus stops, don’t want to hang out with scam artists hitting you up for money, have tight schedules and don’t enjoy exercise, or other reasons.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Many people have multiple destinations, shopping needs, are not close to bus stops, don’t want to hang out with scam artists hitting you up for money, have tight schedules and don’t enjoy exercise, or other reasons.