elocs

I didn't think you meant it that way. I have lived in the same city of 50,000 now for 60 years. I grew up here went to schools here, went to college here, and worked here until I retired. Most of the people I grew up with have lived here all of their lives as well. I grew up in a very working class neighborhood and was poor but I never really knew it at the time. My family was car free until I was 18 and could drive because I was raised by a single mom who didn't drive along with a younger sister and brother. People who are poor or need to work hard to make ends meet, people who have families with children and obligations and jobs they depend upon cannot just up and move because they don't like the climate where they live. That's just reality and that quiet desperation they experience has nothing to do with being car free or car light.
Yes, it is hard living where it gets sub-zero cold with ice and snow in the winter and you need to be tough to do it. I'm retired now when the snowbirds are supposed to head to warmer southern climates but this is my home and this is where I will live and you could drag me or pay me to live elsewhere.

wipekitty

I'm with you guys on moving...

I'm at 16x, I think, and I'm only 36. We only moved once when I was a kid, so most of those have been adult moves. I'm looking at nine cities, six states, two countries, and a few of those moving around town in college moves.

I also get that it's not an option for everyone. People from close-knit communities with a lot of family, for instance, might not have the same options to pack up and go...without also sacrificing something important. Some career paths, too, might lend themselves better to not moving around all the time. On the other hand, some of us might just be inclined to wander the earth aimlessly. I actually start to get a bit anxious when I haven't moved in a while!

More on topic: I'm probably in the best place financially that I've ever been now, and my family does not have a car! Likewise, some of my moving decisions were in fact influenced by climate. I thought warm winters would be fun, but learned that I hate the heat and sought out job opportunities in cold places. And southern California...not much to complain about in terms of weather, but I actually got kind of cranky that there was barely any bad weather to complain about! (That, and all the people.)

elocs

There's nothing like living through one of our western Wisconsin winters to make you really appreciate those beautiful spring days. People who live here call it "God's Country" for a reason and even with winters people have found that they want to live here because of its quality of life and it's a great place to raise a family.
We like to complain about things here because maybe familiarity does breed contempt but when I was in college and went to Florida where my grandfather lived for Christmas break I would be telling everyone how we do things in Wisconsin until I was told I wasn't in Wisconsin. Evidently I had a pride in my home they I didn't always appreciate until I got somewhere else. I'm content in the knowledge that I am just where I want to be.

Mobile 155

That is why we have different personalities for different people. My family came to California two generation before I was born because farming in the south was a losing proposition. Work and a better life were not going to happen staying where they were. My dad came out riding in a box car and joined my grandfather looking for work in pre-war aircraft production. So I guess never setting down roots comes more naturally for me. But with all of that it has made it easier for me to look for other options even as I just start getting settled in a new place. Normally even after I move somewhere I take vacations somewhere else to make sure there are no better opportunities that I make take advantage of if things go bad where I am. Yes I have a family but my wife came here from Iowa under much of the same reasons as my grandparents had for moving here in the 40s. So getting the family to be willing to move isn't a big problem for me. Sometimes I am more resistant in fact then they are.

I understand the people that have roots tied to a place. They exist in every country I have ever visited. Still looking at the migration patterns in the U.S. today it seems as if there are a lot of people like me that do pick up and move for reasons of their own. And I wouldn't be surprised if some do because of the weather.

Roody

I'm glad you mentioned wind. Truly, wind is more likely to stop me from riding than any other weather condition. It takes your strength away and it can even drive you mad. I once literally went sideways on an icy road due to a 50 mph crosswind. I never dreamed that going sideways on a bicycle was even possible! Fortunately, there were no cars out due to the icy conditions. I made it home safely, with an interesting memory, while those motorists were too scared to even come out of the driveway. (Maybe they had interesting memories of what they watched on TV that night?)

Luckily, wind has much less effect on walking, so I can just leave the bike at home if I don't like the wind speed.

Mobile 155

We get strong Santa Ana winds here that will almost stop your forward progress. Once on a rather long ride with friends from out local mountains to the beach I ran into a head wind on the way home. Almost 60 miles with wind in the face. There were times when my average speed was 4 mph. I have not tried such a ride in the wind since.

tandempower

What's the most time you've spent outside at what temperature?

Do you understand why I mention the breathing tube idea? Theoretically, if you have enough insulation around your body, you can prevent heat leakage from everywhere except your lungs, because you have to breathe in and out. If you can pre-warm the air by running it through a tube inside your clothing, then you could be outside in much lower temperatures, i.e. because the air would be pre-heated before you breathe it.

Now, if you're going to start accusing me of lacking experience in cold and otherwise badgering me, just don't bother responding. But if you can actually understand what I mean, then I would appreciate your thoughts as someone who has a lot of experience in very cold weather outdoor situations.

daihard 

I bike less. I don't mind being cold. What I do mind is the rain. (Note: I live in Seattle.) If it starts to rain in the middle of a ride, I usually continue on until I get to my destination unless it pours down. if it's already rainy by the time I leave home, I tend to leave my bike at home and take transit.

Machka 

The longest time I've been outside (with the exception of very short breaks) was just shy of 90 hours on a 1200 km randonnee ... in a variety of temps, weather, etc. Or touring ... I've spent lengthy times where "indoors" was my tent.

Or do you mean, what is the longest I've spent and the coldest temperature at which I spent it?

That could possibly be the just over 15 hours I spent cycling a century (100 mile ride) in February 2003. The day started before dawn at -32C and peaked at a comparatively warm -25C somewhere in the middle of the day before dropping back down to about -30C by the end of the ride in the dark.

I have also cycled and skied for shorter periods of time (hour or two) in -40C/F.


I know what you think you mean ... and I also know these exist: https://coldavenger.com/

I can't say I've ever seen anyone use one, but one of the comments says, "I have used the snow hunter on two arctic operations with the military." so that might be a more common use.

That comment goes on to say, "Its only issue is the fogging of goggles" which is precisely why I'd be reluctant to use one and why I don't often cover my nose when I'm out in the cold.

wipekitty

Related to this...one of my favorite Bikeforums threads ever, and perhaps the definitive solution to the perennial winter-cycling question, "How do I keep my goggles from freezing?"

For most winter cyclists - at least from what I've observed from topics on the Winter Cycling subforum (and the old Icebike listserv) breathing is not so much of an issue as fogging goggles!

Machka 

And for someone like me who wears glasses ... the struggle is real! I've had them fog up and ice up ... I've been riding along only able to see out of a dot about the size of a dime on one lens. I drop my balaclava or neck gaiter down below my mouth to clear them ... but it's cold so I put them up a bit again, and whoosh, all of a sudden I can't see at all ... it's a constant battle!!

Just had a look at the thread ... if I were still in Winnipeg, I might give one of those things a try.

tandempower

Yes, I was trying to ask about how long in the cold at what temp.

I generally don't put out the same level of power/heat that you would in these situations, so I wonder if my body heat output would be sufficient to keep me warm for this long in these temperatures. Do you think you could slow down to a hiking pace without getting too cold, or do you think you need to maintain the vigor to keep warm?

That would probably be sufficient if they are used in the arctic. If they don't impede the flow of fresh air, that's the main thing, I think. I've tried wearing bandanas/etc. over my mouth and nose in cold weather but it's frustrating not to be able to get big gulps of fresh air in each breath.

[/quote]That comment goes on to say, "Its only issue is the fogging of goggles" which is precisely why I'd be reluctant to use one and why I don't often cover my nose when I'm out in the cold.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I don't like eye coverings in general for this reason as well as others. I do like ski masks that cover the nose without blocking the nostrils, though.

Walter S

If a hiking pace is something like a walking pace or even short of a good running pace then you'll need to layer more clothes on to keep warm. Surely you must be able to ride faster than a walking pace? It's not easy to keep the bike upright at less than 3.5 mph or so and that's a pretty fast walk. Most people can ride three or four times a walking pace hardly trying and more like five times is pretty typical and not athletic even on a loaded touring bike. If you can't do that now then some real basic training is all you need.

Machka 

I'm usually warmer when walking than I am cycling because of the windchill factor.


With any exercise in the cold, hypothermia is possibly your biggest risk, so you don't want to put out too much power because there's an increased chance you'll also put out sweat. And unless you've got your layers exactly right (which takes some practice), sweat can cause all sorts of problems.

So while I appreciate the compliment, my average speed on that particular century was probably around 13 km/h, taking into account breaks to eat, drink, use the toilet, and change clothes. For one thing, about 15 minutes into the ride, my gears froze ... so I had about 15 minutes to decide what gear I wanted. I knew that would happen from my experiencing commuting in those temps and colder temps, so I picked the best gear, but still when you're used to many gears, riding in just one can be a bit of an adjustment. For another thing, I had to go with my heavy duty Sorell winter boots which aren't great for cycling. When it came to food and water, I had to return to my apartment about every 1.5 hours ... you can't carry it with you because it all freezes solid. The road conditions were pretty good, but still icy/frosty/snow covered in spots, so certain areas were rather slow going ... especially once darkness fell.

That was the longest I've ever taken on a century!!

Roody

I imagine he was referring to the metabolic effort rather than actual speed of travel. For example, bicycling at 12 mph might be roughly equivalent to a 3 mph walking rate, in terms of effort (i.e., caloric use). So bicycling and walking at these rates would produce similar amounts of heat. In that case, I think walking might be a bit warmer than cycling, given the significant wind chill at riding speeds.

tandempower

Exactly. Thank you for clarifying what I couldn't quite put succinctly.

tandempower

One of the first thoughts I had regarding the utopianism of LCF on a broader scale was to replace the migratory madness of 'snowbirds' driving up and down the highways during winter with some other method of travel that wouldn't clog up the roads or gradually destroy the environment. Imagined trains and buses as solutions to improve efficiency in the short term, but in the long term I considered a totally fuel-free society in which people can hike/bike south for the winter by organizing lodging/employment patterns that would allow them to take advantage of warmer temperatures at more southern latitudes without adding pressure/demand to infrastructure.

Even though I still see this as a good idea, I encounter more hate and/or criticism for posting it than you could imagine. Of course I realize that it sounds very pie-in-the-sky from a 'realistic' perspective, but I can't help but view southern latitudes as a simple natural solution to northern winters, and I think that a lot more people could feasibly migrate south for the winter if LCF was the dominant paradigm for getting there and/or getting around there.

Now, if this is too political-sounding as a post I hope the mods will forgive me; and to those who feel like attacking me for even mentioning this idea in reference to problem of being stuck in a cold winter situation, please understand that this is just a simple marriage of the dream of LCF with the dream of going south for the winter; both of which are obviously 'for the birds,' but maybe for humans as well . . . some day.

Machka 

You do realise that "snowbirds" are traditionally the elderly retired folks ... right?

You might start your investigation into this by determining exactly how many snowbirds there are in North America. How many retirees follow this migratory pattern? What are their habits? In other words, do they drive straight down to their destination or do they make stops along the way? What is the impact on tourism and the economy? You could also look at what happens in other continents.

elocs

Glasses, just like goggles, are a major bummer in super cold weather when you try to wear any kind of face covering--major fogging.
Over 40 years ago I was walking home along the railroad tracks one subzero February night so I took off my glasses to wear my face mask. I could see well enough to walk but distance was a blur.
Suddenly I was astounded to see white lights coming out of the dark sky that had colored edges and were pulsating. I open my coat to get out my glasses because I just had to see it.
Well, it was a major disappointment, but I had to laugh. The pulsating UFO lights turned out to be the headlight of cars coming over the railroad overhead and they were pulsating because my pupils were dilating back and forth trying to focus. It was so exciting...for a moment.

I have to say that you can be much warmer walking in subzero weather than you can riding a bike. You can dress warmer and wear clothing and footwear that just would not be conducive to cycling. Your feet will be much warmer walking because your feet will be moving in your shoes.
I have walked for an hour in very cold weather wearing only tennis shoes and a couple of pairs of Merino wool socks and my feet are perfectly warm. Wear the same on a bike and your feet will be soon cold. You can wear winter boots that you just couldn't wear cycling. I wear chopper mitts with a wool liner and my hands are never cold walking but that's problematic while trying to ride a bike. If it's really bad in the winter and I just gotta haveto go out I would walk every time rather than bike. Frankly if the winter weather is that bad with cold and ice and snow I see no reason to risk my life and limb to casually ride my bike anywhere. The great advantage of being retired is that I can pick my moments to ride anywhere.

Roody

Like lots of people, I have bicycled extensively in winter boots and other "ordinary" winter gear. Just the other day I saw a young guy riding in a full length wool overcoat. I wouldn't like it, but he looked happy...and warm! Personally, I also feel steadier on a MTB with studded tires than I do walking on slick ice.

elocs

From my experience I stand by my claim--you can be much warmer walking than riding a bike in super cold weather. There is no way to explain away riding against the wind in very cold weather, adding the speed of your riding to the speed of the wind and increasing the windchill. Riding into the wind on such a day will suck the energy right out of you. Here in Wisconsin you see few bicycle riders in the winter and there's a good reason for that.
Oh, I walk with slip on studs for my shoes or boots that cost maybe $10 so I have no fear of slipping on ice.

tandempower

I don't really care too much about cultural norms that have been established around the automobile because those would have to change drastically to accommodate any kind of broad-spectrum LCF-based sustainability. Anyway, we can't discuss this outside of P&R anyway, so all I meant to do was express something that is my opinion without creating a discussion that would get anyone in trouble.

People always want to debate me on the realism of my ideas, and it causes problems in threads. What it boils down to is that, yes, there is a 'realist' perspective that deems my ideas pie-in-the-sky and I understand that; but nevertheless these things are achievable solutions to real environmental and economic problems that won't go away on their own. Discussing the details of those problems and solutions may be P&R material, but when people are talking about migrating south to get out of the cold, I can't help but think about my lovely dream of LCF seasonal migration between colder and warmer climates.

Fargo Wolf

It all depends on the road conditions. So long as it's not too mucky out, then yes, I'll ride. Otherwise, I'll suck it up and drive.