Thigh Master

Apologies, I posted similar post in the general discussion area. Looks like this is the place. Why would one choose the Divide vs the Siskiyou? I want a Co-Motion with pinion gear box that allows me to commute steep (7-15%) route with occasional snow/ice - needs clearance for studded tire. I’m 6’1”, 225 lbs. Also bike touring Europe for 3-4 weeks.

Tourist in MSN

From what I can see, the big difference is 700c tires vs 650b tires.

I have never owned a Co-Motion. So, if there is a reason other than tire size, I am unaware of it.

I have toe overlap on every 700c bike I own with fenders, but do not with my 26 inch wheel bikes with fenders. The 650b would come in between on that topic. You could certainly ask Co-Motion about that, they have the geometry data.

I have toured on 26 inch wheel touring bikes and 700c. If you wanted S&S couplers, a smaller wheel is a BIG advantage in packing it. But you did not mention couplers, so I suspect they are not on your shopping list, thus that is a non-issue for you.

Otherwise I see little reason to pick one over the other. At 6'1", I do not see an advantage to a smaller wheel, where a smaller rider might prefer that.

Doug64

My wife has been riding her Co -Motion, Nor' Wester Tour for 28,000 miles (22,000 miles of actual touring), and would not part with it. It is a discontinued model which was replaced by the Cascadia. You can't go wrong with a Co-Motion bike, or the great customer service. We live 45 miles from their shop , and have had a lot of positive interaction with them.

I would take the Divide over the Siskiyou for a touring bike just based on wheel size. I would go with the 700c (29") over the 650b. My opinion is based on the difficulty I had trying to find a replacement wheel and tire for a neighbor's bike equipped with 650b wheels, I had to replace a 700c front wheel on my bike while cycling in Canada; and it was not a problem finding a wheel.

It will be interesting what the other folks think l about the availability 650b wheels, tubes and tires.

Thigh Master

The 650B sounds amazing but the availability isn’t there yet, at least that’s also my understanding. I will look up the Cascadia for fun. Do you ride a Co-Motion?

Thigh Master

Correct, no couplers, very observant. I have heard that the 26 inch advantage is strength and maneuverability as well as lots of parts in the third world if the rim/tire has issues. I like the idea of a larger diameter wheel/tire for comfort and handling on paved and dirt roads. I’m not a technical trail guy.

Tourist in MSN

Decades ago it was widely said that if you were in some obscure place in South America, that it was easier to find a 26 inch tire. But, I have not been there and have no plans to do so. And I am not hearing that story any more.

The difference between 700c and 650b in actual size is so small, that I do not see much advantage or disadvantage from one to the other when it comes to wheel strength, quickness of handling, weight, or the inertia to accelerate. As I noted, toe overlap might be an issue with 650b or it might not be. And for a small rider, there is a reason to go with a smaller wheel.

I built up my last 26 inch touring bike in 2013, which was near the end of when 26 inch wheel touring bikes made sense. I considered a Co Motion Pangea with S&S couplers at that time, but in the end bought a Thorn Nomad Mk II frame and fork (with couplers) instead, largely based on price. I had to pay over $100 USD in customs fees for the Thorn when it was delivered, but it was still a lot cheaper than the Pangea. And I am happy with my purchase. That said, I am sure I would have been happy with the Pangea too. But I would not be building up a new 26 inch wheel bike now due to the lack of tire choices.

I think you have it figured out.

A side note. Make sure you get the exact gear range you want for gearing. If your gearing is higher or lower than you find to be ideal, it will be costly to get a different sprocket, belt and possibly chainring.

Thigh Master

I like your opinion re 650B vs 700c. I've been a 700c road bike (no touring) guy for so long this kind of info really helps. And golly, I think a Pinion P18 would cover just about, well, everything in my grade vs weight realm!

Tourist in MSN

My heavy touring bike has a Rohloff hub, range is 526 percent. I wish I had one more gear, which would make it about 594 percent.

Pinion 18 has 636 percent, so it should have all the gears you need. But my point is if it is geared too high or too low, you would notice if you wanted a higher or lower gear.

My lowest gear on my Rohloff bike for touring is 16.2 gear inches, high gear is 85.1 gear inches. For touring, that low gear is good for climbing up a hill with a load. If it is so steep that my heart rate gets too high, I stop and get off the bike and push. There are times I wished I had one more high gear for the shallow downhills, but I won't give up the low gear to get it. This low gear is 3.5 mph with a cadence of 72, wheel size 26 inch, which is about the slowest that I can go and still maintain directional and vertical stability without over-steering.

But for riding around home where the most weight I might have on it is a pannier of groceries, I put on a bigger chainring and add four chain links. Then my gear range is 19.8 to 104 gear inches, which works really well without a heavy load on the bike.

I am assuming your touring would be on pavement with the occasional rail trail or canal towpath. No rough off road riding. And I assume drop bars.

Thigh Master

That’s really nice data. And you are correct terms of drop bars and minimal rough off road riding. That being said, the vast majority of time will be as my daily commuter which includes two miles of dirt road with an 11% grade for a short part, and 3.5 miles of 7-15% grade paved… winter months deal out hard pack snow and ice. I will also use a single pannier for lunch and work shoes/clothing. The bike needs to handle studded snows, if it turns out the studs don’t wear out too quickly, as half of the 22 mile commute is typically dry in the winter. I believe the P18 gear range would be more than adequate with 700c/29er wheels/tires.

mev

I've cycled across South America (Cartagena to Ushuaia in 2017, Georgetown to Paramaribo in 2019) including some obscure places. I had a bike with 26 inch in 2017 and 700c in 2019. I've never put much stock in this supposed wisdom for South America (or for Russia or some other obscure places I've cycled). My sense was instead:

-- Many of these countries, I was likely to end up looking in a major city/capital anyways, e.g. Quito, Lima, Medellin, Mendoza or in a tourist area e.g. Patagonia. It takes a bit to find a good bike shop but the internet helps. Those shops in the largest cities tend to have similar stuff you can get elsewhere world-wide. So some things like tubes of different sizes (including things like presta 26") I could find there. These shops were also tracking the 29er trend happening elsewhere.
-- In the US, the internet means I end up getting some things e.g. particular Schwalbe tires by mail (or Amazon prime on the road) anyways and it is hit/miss whether I see any of these particular things in US-based shops. So also not surprising to also not see these in most shops I saw in South America.
-- Tires often give me enough warning that I can carry one spare and then have sufficient time/distance to figure out what comes next. That is a much more likely solution for me than trying to look for an unknown quality tire somewhere obscure - particularly if I'm carrying more than average weight. Even in the US I'll behave that way. I've now seen Walmart carries more bike tires but that doesn't mean that ends up being my first choices in the US.

The net result was: (a) I was carrying a spare tire anyways (b) the places I could find replacements was limited anyways (c) I didn't see appreciable difference between those places for 700c vs 26 inch in 2017/2019 (d) I don't expect the trends to be in favor of more 26 inch in the future.
-

djb

I use studded tires on my winter bike, an old mtb, and the studs are still alright after I believe 3 winters, maybe 4. I am however much lighter than you, by 90 lbs, so I put a lot less wear on tires and drivetrain , brakes compared to a bigger feller.

re winter riding--I ride in an urban environment, with a Canadian winter-lots of snow and ice, and the roads have a crapload of salt put down on them.
I have to say that I can't imagine riding a really nice bike in this environment--you cannot imagine how the liquid salty brine even at -15c or 5 f , is on the road, and gets thrown up against your bike and works its way into all little areas--- the hubs, the spoke nipple areas, the headset, any and all cable routing areas (would be even worse with internal routings, as you won't see it getting in).
Salty brine is also murder on disc calipers. Its pretty common here for people with fatbikes that transport them on exterior rear car racks, to have big issues with brakes and everything--imagine, 60mph salty liquid working its way into any and every crevice on the bike and then rusting stuff unseen even after exterior washing.

I have a garage and I wash down my commuter bike after every ride, and even then at the end of the season when I take off my wheels, the quick release areas and rod etc has rust inside--and I grease well these areas before the season and even then it gets inside spaces. The road grit is also pretty substantial, like riding on wet gravel all the time, so really hard on the drivetrain. Again, I wipe my chain down after every ride and lube it with WD40 (this is just easier and cleaner than all the various chain lubes I own, it works and for my shortish riding, is the best solution I have found)

Have you regularly ridden your bike on salty roads? I have friends who ride in winter and never wash their bike, but they also don't do their own maintenance and it doesnt bother them in the least or even notice that their chains and everything get rusty as crap--so just a warming about using an expensive, really nice bike with a really nice drivetrain in this environment.
Winter riding with salt is just really, really hard on a bike.

don't get me wrong, the bikes you are considering are super cool bikes. I think a belt drive pinion bike would be awesome. If I had the money I would love to have one.

back to gearing, given the grades you'll be dealing with, and then with future touring and carrying more stuff, having at least a 20 gear inch low is recommended. Personally for me lower than 20 is nice to have, but you should have an idea of what works for you.
I realize that belt drive stuff means more forethought going into gearing, but for touring, lower is always going to be better with mountains and whatnot. You'll never regret it.

have fun making decisions

Tourist in MSN

I am impressed that you want to commute on a bike with 3.5 miles of 7-15 percent grade. Even if all 3.5 miles was 7 percent and not steeper, that would be about 1,300 feet of elevation gain. If I was considering a bike for that commute, it would have a Bosch motor and I would park the touring bike until the next tour.

Good luck on the brakes, I have had brake fade on some serious downhills with disc brakes. You might need to experiment with different pads to see what brakes are most effective and minimize fade.

Do you have experience with studded tires? The reason that I ask is my experience with studs (50mm Schwabe Marathon Winters) is that they are great on ice. But, once you have over a 1/2 or 3/4 inch of inch of snow, sometimes the snow prevents your studs from reaching the ice and you slide on the ice because of the packed snow under the tire starts to slide on the ice. That could be problematic on a steep hill.

djb

thigh--that is a rather tough looking commute, and throw in riding on snow and ice, that's challenging.

My studded tires are the pretty basic ones, 1.75 inch schwalbe winters, with the lower number of studs (two rows , but no studs on the sides) and minimal tread.
I find lowering the pressures help with loose snow, but being only 1.75 in wide tires, there is only so much loose snow they can handle--but my rides are mostly on the flat, with a bit of up and down, but not much. I do go out on snowstorm days and often end up pushing the bike through loose sections, but I am not riding that far, so it makes for a good workout, but I can usually ride most of my commute most days, so not a big issue.

There are a whole slew of studded winter tires out there, diff tread patterns, wide range of number of studs, and a big range of prices also. Good luck with deciding what is best for you, although it sounds like a more mountain bike tread and more studs would really be beneficial.

I've not had brake fade problems with discs, but again, I weigh a lot less than you guys and I brake sparingly.

Tourist in MSN

The OP said:
I have heard that the 26 inch advantage is strength and maneuverability as well as lots of parts in the third world if the rim/tire has issues.

I said:
Decades ago it was widely said that if you were in some obscure place in South America, that it was easier to find a 26 inch tire. But, I have not been there and have no plans to do so. And I am not hearing that story any more.

Then from Mev:
I really wonder if the 26 inch availability story for South America and Asia a decade or two decades ago was a myth or reality?

I also recall hearing a decade or two ago that if you went somewhere that was a former French colony, such as Viet Nam or Cambodia, that 650b tires were the easiest to find. But I have never been to a former French colony (unless you count Canada), so I have no clue if that was a myth or reality.

Back at that time (a decade or two ago) if someone asked me which size was better for touring, I said that it is hard to find 700c tires wider than 37mm and it is hard to find 26 inch tires that are narrower than 40mm. So, decide based on which tires you might want to use, wider or narrower ones. That was then, now wider 700c tires are readily available and some good tires are no longer available in 26 inch. Things have really changed.

It is hard to say what will be popular and available a decade from now.

A couple years ago I built up another dynohub wheel for a rim brake bike with quick release. I decided to buy a through axle hub with the adapters to convert to quick release with disc brake mounts as a future proofing plan. But then saw the price difference, so bought the quick release hub instead. It has a disc mount but only because they were out of stock on the rim brake version.

Thigh Master

Great info, thank you.

Thigh Master

Man your elevation estimate was close... that portion of the commute is from 7,000' in Jamestown topping out at 8,500'. I have been riding this route for 30 years on my road bike, so I am accustomed to it, including braking (discs the past few years greatly helped avoid heat flats). This is the first time I've tried to seriously solve the ice/snow days though.

Tourist in MSN

Ok, so you are an experienced roadie with lots of climbing background. I did not think that was a serious description of your commute, but yes, you are a serious rider.

Since you are getting a custom built bike, if you want a dynohub, get it now instead of later. I assume you know what that is. If not, say so and I will elaborate why I suggest it.

Rick

I second geting the dynohub with the custom build. I would get the Son 28 SL hub. The fork dropout has to be made for this setup. You will not need to unplug the wires when you remove the front wheel.

djb

that's a spicey meatball of a commute, but hell it must keep you in good riding shape!
If you are serious about riding in ice snow days, do good research into the wide range of studded tires. Again, I would strongly suggest ones with the side studs also, and then the tread pattern that you think would be best for what you'll typically be riding in.
I have ridden with my tires on a perfectly flat frozen river, like a mirror. Super cool to do, but I had to be super aware of not leaning past a certain point because of the stud pattern on my tires. Same with when I ride downhill on ice and corner on the street.
My choice for these tires were that they were rather inexpensive compared to some, and also that I knew most of the time I would be riding on hard packed snow and ice , and or a lot of clear pavement--so a compromise basically. Being my first time with studded tires, I also was a bit loathe to spend well over a $100 per tire for some of the super duper models, and these ones have been very adequate for what I ride in.

I actually like underbiking tire wise sometimes, as its a fun challenge traction wise front and rear--but I like sliding around and being on the edge of traction. Had motorcycles and always liked sliding with them also, same with cars being Canadian eh.

another point for commuting--when you often have a thin layer of snow on top of unseen ice, this is where studded tires really are worth it. Like I said, I've lost the front with motorcycles and bikes a lot in my life, but losing the front on ice happens so fast, you're on your ass faster than you can think, so the right studded tire really is worth it.

but hey, its great for improving your seat of pants traction detection device and being gentle with steering and braking inputs, not to mention catching a front or rear slide which is always fun as hell, and greatly satisfying!

Tourist in MSN

If you are commuting with a bike this expensive, I hope you have secure storage at work.

djb

here in Montreal, this winter the bicycle rental program, bixi bikes, will be trying out fro the first time having a bunch of their bikes available all winter---all I could think of when I read this was the poor bixi mechanics who have to maintain the fleet---the salt and everything is going to really do a number on these bikes and cause no end of rusting and basically a whole hell of a lot more work for the poor mechanics.

I wonder if they end up finding out it is not worth it, as I would suspect that the bike fleet is going to suffer a lot from the bikes getting pretty ratty.
I would hope that they have a very regular overhaul program, because I'm telling you from experience, corroding salty water getting into any and every crevice on a bike and sitting there for days, weeks, really does a number on stuff.
I wonder how the internal 3 speed hubs on these bikes deal with this, not to mention the brake systems.

Thigh Master

Yes... my office.

Thigh Master

Thanks for that - yes I have learned recently about dyno hubs - awesome. The Co-motion Divide comes with the Edelux II which has good reviews, just no rear dyno light.

Rick

When I ordered my Co-Motion Pangea Rohloff. I specified the SL version of the Son 28. Co-Motion had to make a custom right fork dropout for my bicycle. This means I never need to unplug wires when I remove the front wheel. Peter Whites Son SL Page. I purchased the Busch & Müller Toplight Line Plus Brake Tec tail light and the Coaxial Taillight Wire for Schmidt Headlights.

Tourist in MSN

I do not see a need for a special fork for a special dynohub. I have SP and Shimano dynohubs, both use the same type of connector which I find to work just fine. The standard Son which I suspect is what Comotion would use uses a different type of connector, but it should still work pretty easily to manually connect and disconnect the wires.

There are lots of B&M taillights that bolt on the back rack. I suggest you get one of those, but use stainless nylock nuts (standard hardware store) to attach it, not the stock nuts that B&M uses that can corrode. I suspect that one of the Toplight Line models would work well for you. The taillight plugs into the headlight, the headlight switch controls both.

Would you ever want to use the dynohub for charging up batteries? On a tour, I am almost always camping where there is no outlet in my campsite. I try to stay self reliant for electrics with my dynohub and a USB charger powered by the Dynohub. A pass through cache battery is not a must but I highly recommend it.

Edelux and Son use a wiring system that I have not used, so I can't comment on that. I have only used the standard two lead wire that B&M provides and the 2.8mm connectors that they use.

I used to use a Sinewave Revolution charger, but my last tour this past April I instead used a Cycle2Charge V3 charger, it has more power output than the Sinewave. But it does not charge below about 6.5 or 7 mph. And it only works with the lights off. Bought it from Amazon in Germany.
https://www.amazon.de/Cycle2Charge-V...B&currency=EUR

If you want more detail, let me know.