holytrousers

Thanks SB, i've used that chart the first time i've re-built a wheel ( just changed the hub, relaced, trued and tensioned ) but the rim developed cracks around drive-side eyelets then the cracks appeared everywhere and the wheel went out of true.
It was a nice rigida rim... even though the spokes were 2.0mm thick... besides, this chart doesn't mention if it valid for front wheels, DS or NDS rear wheels. I'm actually bulidng a 700c with 36 spokes clincher wheel with a 8sp hub...
I have no problem to evenly tension the wheels by plucking the, it's a nice method indeed

holytrousers

I hope i'll get that experience too when i get hold of a tensiometer
Sheldon Brown's website is like a bible, it got me hooked into bicycle mechanics and gave me the courage to do everything by myself without relying on some LBS. Thanks for mentioning him... I was unlucky with that chart unfortunately, it doesn't even mention if the tension is for the left or the right side spokes...

noglider 

I have nothing against tensiometers. It's just that I haven't used one yet.

holytrousers

BTW, i wanted to thank you for that tip with the thumbnail it's much more reliable than checking by sight and less expensive than sheldon brown's method with filing a screwdriver's head..

fietsbob

As mandolin guitar player I used plucked tone & compared with other well built wheels.
Have wheels I built in the 70's, that are still fine..

Of course dished rear wheels pull the hub to the left from a tension balance differential..

pdlamb

Rear drive side spokes and front spokes are tuned per the chart (assuming you're using rim brakes, I'm not sure what you do with discs). Non-drive rear spokes are as tight as they can be while keeping the rim centered; they're usually substantially lower tension.

fietsbob

the front disc hub wheel I built used same length spokes , but the disc side is dished .. a little tighter .
axle ends and rim symmetrical..

berner

For the rear wheel, the drive side spokes are tensioned as per recommendation, then the non-drive side spokes are tensioned only as much as necessary to maintain a straight rim. I just slowly bring everything up to tension, a bit on the drive side and a bit on non-drive and repeat this until desired tension is reached. Good luck.

holytrousers

I haven't followed the chart (for now) as i wasn't confident enough to tell whether the pitch was the same (used an app called pitch pipe to generate the G)
but i managed to tension NDS spokes up to the point where plucking them gives a clear tone.
i hope that means they are tight enough. maybe that was my mistake on previous builds because i remember NDS spokes made a dull sound.

thanks berner , i think i'm satisfied with the tension finally: as everyone here seemed to agree, uniform tension was more important than overall tension and it has been actually the hardest part (to even it out on both sides) and my mistake must have been to not insist on bringing NDS tension to a level where i can pluck the spokes and clearly hear pitch variation. A small rear derailleur overhaul to finish and we'll see how the wheel behaves, thanks again for taking your time to help out

rydabent

To do ANY job right use the proper tools. If you are building a wheel you need a truing stand and an tension meter.

As an aside to this I worked in the computer industry, and had to go out COUNTLESS times because the other techs were NOT using the proper tool for the job.

deacon mark

i am a jazz guitarist and repair guitars. I could tension a wheel by ear completely but I use a Park Tension meter. It works well and it also tells me my ear is still very good. The pitch of the DS and NDS are different but they all should be close. I would have to say the a 16 or 20 spoke rim is a bit more work and I have only done a 20 radial front. Lower spoke count you want more confident numbers.

eddy m

You're not doing anything wrong. Jobst preferred wheels that were common 50 years ago, with 36 spokes and very light rims. You could barely get enough tension in all those spokes before the rim deformed. With modern heavier deep section rims with fewer spokes, the nipples are more likely to pull out than the rim is to deform. Jobst's method is obsolete.

em

eddy m

I always measure tension. Most of my wheels have been 10 speed rears with 28 or fewer spokes. There really isn't much margin for error in a wheel like that. There's just not much difference between too loose to prevent the nipple from unscrewing and tight enough to break the rim. Keeping a record of the tension also assures me that my wheels are stable.

em

holytrousers

i've no access to these tools so i use my bicycle frame and my fingernails. i'm sure building a wheel using those tools is much easier but my experience has been pretty educational

Thank god i'm riding vintage 36h hubs. you said DS and NDS spokes should have a different but close pitch... what do you mean ? it's really hard to bring NDS spokes to a high tension without excessive tension on the DS.
I haven't thought about it that way... good insight !
But how do you explain then the same method in Musson's book?
I have aluminum 36hole rims, with a square profile, and they didn't taco that much.
In the end i guess tension is not that fussy, it has to be just tight and my previous builds' mistakes might have been loose NDS or uneven tensioning. Musson says the cracks appear because of overinflated tires and spokes fail because of loose tensioning, which could happen when spokes are not evenly tensioned..

Kovkov

This would be to much tension 😉

cpach

I fall into the camp that thinks if you're building a wheel for money you absolutely should be using a tensiometer to set a reasonably precise average tension. That said, with the relatively wide range of reasonably performing tension values on a conventionally spoked wheel, Musson's general advise to tension until the (appropriately lubricated) nipples become somewhat difficult to turn will probably put you in the ballpark. Do absolutely use plucked spoke tone to make sure that tension is even, however--if you just true to a reasonable dimensional tolerance you can end up with pretty wildly uneven tension. Aside from that, a tensiometer is the only reasonable way to be precise about absolute tension.

Deepcherry

So my question is : How would you describe the feel of a wheel when it's properly tensioned ? What's the general idea describing a well tensioned wheel ? What signs tell you the wheel is just fine ?[/QUOTE]

I find that simply squeezing two neighbouring spokes together on various new/maintained wheels gives me a good idea of the tension required. It really comes down to feel and methodical perseverance to true and tension a wheel by ‘instinct’.
There is little doubt that with the correct components one can build a good wheel successfully every time.

I am somewhat oldskool so please do not flame me!

Trakhak

The easiest way to reduce the likelihood of rim damage from excessive spoke tension is to use thin butted spokes. DT used to (and might still) refer to 2.0 straight-gauge spokes as "tandem" spokes, meant for use with robust rims only. If there's a downside to the use of thin butted spokes, I haven't yet encountered it.

Best practice: use moderately light butted spokes for front wheels and on the drive side of rear wheels and very light butted spokes for the non-drive side.

eddy m

The rim is definitely the limiting factor for spoke tension. TOo much tension and either the rim will fold in comression or the spokes will pull oout of the rim. Unfortunately, rim manufacturers never publish maximum tension specifications.
Back in the day we used to 36 spoke wheels with very light rimes and very light spokes. Quality control then wasn't what it is now, so we broke a lot of spokes, which we usually replaced with 2mm straight gauge. The straight gauge spoke couldn't be tensioned enough to prevent the nipple from unscrewing, so the wheel became unstable. Modern wheels are way better.

em

joeruge

I've built a few wheels, maybe a couple of dozen over the years, 'cutting my teen's with Jobt's book about 35 - 40 years ago. Just rebuilt one on Monday to replace a front wheel on our tandem that I crushed in a pothole the day before.

I have built them exclusively by 'feel' and have never had a problem. Rarely even having to re-true after riding. Now, does that mean I'm some kind of expert or a wheel building artist? Nope.

I think it means that as long as all the spokes are 'reasonably' tensioned, that you follow good wheel building technique, and the wheel is de-stressed and true, that there is a fairly wide range of builds that will result in an acceptable wheel that will last for years.

Under tensioning spokes is the killer of wheels. Better to make the spokes a 1/2 turn too tight than a 1/2 turn too loose.

Having had good success 'by feel' doesn't mean that I would not use a spoke tension meter. I'm just sort of cheap and didn't want to spend $90+ for one. But seeing one on Amazon for $30, that excuse is now gone. It may not be as accurate as the Park tool for showing actual tension, but as long it can consistently show 'relative' tension, that's good enough for me.

Building a wheel by feel does involve a certain amount of plucking to listen to the tone of each spoke (again, for relative tension). I was interested in seeing Sheldon's table of notes for various spoke lengths and gauges. I don't think that table takes into account how the wheel is built, (2X or 3X, etc., which is essentially like fretting a guitar string). I would love to see an app developed that you could input all the relevant data and come up with a frequency that you could check with your phone.

eddy m

You can calculate the frequency/tension relationship easily enough. After that a guitar tuner app should work.

em

rosefarts

It has been a while since I said I'd get back to y'all. Been busy.

Anyway, I've checking of and correcting my builds with the tension meter.

In some cases, I nearly got it perfect. In other cases, I was way off.

You can't use the times I was nearly perfect as an example, since the wheels were just as straight and I couldn't really tell they were evenly tensioned or not.

So this is definitely an argument for using a tension meter. It's a little tedious though.

So yeah, if I was in the middle of nowhere with few resources, I still feel like I could build a great wheel with just the frame and spoke wrench. However, I definitely feel better about my wheels after this project. I really haven't noticed any difference in ride quality.

conspiratemus1

In a similar vein, when gyroscope-driven artificial horizons and turn-and-bank indicators were introduced for aircraft, seasoned pilots insisted that the instruments must be faulty because they showed the airplane turning or flying upside down every time they flew into clouds...

conspiratemus1

DB spokes are better than straight-gauge on tandems just as they are everywhere else.

fietsbob

My built I used 2 mm straight , because I had to buy 90 of them 40 f, 48 r & a spare or 2..