CdCf

Seems like almost everyone who replies in here has got some part of it all wrong, in terms of what it is electric shifting does, and what it is I'm proposing it should be developed to do. I've patiently tried again and again to explain to you what it is and what it isn't, but you all fly off on tangents and either fail to read my replies, or fail to understand them.

ScrubJ

Battery life is one thing, useful life is another. My laptop battery is several years old and still works just fine. When being used its life is rather short.

Anyone that is familiar with any type of battery knows they discharge over time used or not. That means having to charge your battery on a regular basis (my laptop will drop to 65% just sitting around doing nothing in a couple of weeks or so) or face failure on the next ride.

Where one stores their bike (or at least their battery) now becomes an issue. Batterys don't like to be overheated any more than they like being cold.

Bikedued

I guess I'm failing to understand, but not in the way you might think. I'm trying to understand "why". The sad thing is it will probably catch on, and 10 years from now you won't be able to find a "normal" shifting system. I think my point is that the more you're disconnected from the bike, the more it becomes like a motorized vehicle(IE;car or motorcycle) Most of time I get on my bike to completely avoid that feeling.,,,,BD

What's next, power steering?

dwainedibbly

I could put a steering wheel on a toaster, but that wouldn't make it the best way to control it.

n4zou

It's in the helmets sweat pad. Drop by your local pharmacy and you'll see a version of it. You just wipe the sensor across the forehead and read the temp.

n4zou

There is no sensor, the microprocessor knows what gear it's in. If it happens to forget what gear it's in you simply tell it on a setup screen.
Batteries are getting better and new rechargeable batteries can function properly in very cold conditions. Typically the batteries for the development project last for a couple of weeks of daily riding and testing. When I am doing a tour for more than a week or so I use the dynamo on my touring bike to recharge a Smart phone, GPS unit, and the bikes electronics. Everything is capable of being powered and or recharged via a USB connector. Here is the circuit I use on my touring bike to accomplish this.

dbg

Pretty sure I've read them all. What I see is someone pissed off because he can't bully everyone into agreeing with him.

Personally, I'd be willing to try it out for the novelty. But I agree with the majority here. Huge complication and failure risk for very little benefit.

CHenry

Is it lighter? Is it more reliable? Does it cost less to make? To maintain? Is it easier to service?

I am curious about the utility of a shift by wire (or by RF, even) and would like to try it at least. There is something appealing about not having to adjust steel cables. But if it offers no clear advantages for an unsupported non-competitive rider, I don't think it will get much traction outside the company-sponsored race teams. There is a built-in bias in bicycling toward mechanical linkages, sort of like in aircraft design.
You would really have to show a good reason for changing to sell something that would likely be so much more expensive to buy.

ScrubJ

With everyone adding carbon fiber and titanium bits to their bikes to shave grams off the total weight of their bikes we are now adding a battery and a generator??? Don't think I need the drag of anything (generator) extra on my bike while doing a ride.

While anything may be possible the question is, will it be practical?

squirtdad

San Rensho, I was trying to make 3 points. (hopefully this will be clearer).

The first was that while many avid drivers want a manual transmission, in cars manual transmissions are no longer the fastest technology with best control for shifting so some avid drivers will opt for that technology.

The second was that, IMHO, electronic shift for bicycles of any ilk of performance will not be accepted at any significant level unless the racing community embraces the technology.

and finally, that as with everything, it is or will be an individual choice to use this or any new technology.

all in an interesting discussion

operator

If it's faster, the racing community will embrace it. Make no mistake. In fact the racing community embraces any new technology, better or worse.

dvs cycles

I don't trust that new fangled techno stuff.
So now the groupo would come with a helmet too?
This thread is getting more entertaining every day.

Joshua A.C. New

I think it's pretty great that the cycle of statement and restatement is at almost exactly once per page. Not just the OP either.

This is going to call for beer.

BCRider

CdCf, I work in electronics so I understand how your vision could work. It could be as light as the current setups and to the rider at least simpler to use with just pushbuttons or even a tachometer based autoshift that measure the cadence. Hell, a strain guage could even measure the force on the pedals and at some point trigger a downshift to an easier gear.

But I'm also in the KISS camp and I would not have it on my bike thankyouverymuch. I like stuff I can fix by the road or trail side without the need to carry a data analyzer or voltmeter. If my GPS or cadence meter (neither of which I ever plan on buying for a bike) or just by $15 speedometer takes a nose dive I can still get home. I've got hydraulic brakes on a couple of bikes and I'm not even too sure about those since if I rip off a line I'm down to one system and if that goes I'm walking home. At least with cables I can carry a spare.

I know that you're sold on the idea but from skipping through the thread the "market" out here doesn't agree. I guess we're just a bunch of Luddites...

aesmith

If this comes, I expect that it will follow the previous technical changes and tie you in even tighter into one manufacturer. Think how previous changes have increased tie-in

- Indexed gears - Derrailleurs/Shifters/Freewheel all need to be from same source
- Freehubs - Now the hub needs to join that set
- STI/Ergo shifters - now you have to go with their brake lever as well

What will electronic shifting tie in? Well how about powering off an undocumented proprietary supply driven from the front hub. Now the front hub needs to be part of the "group". While we're at it, this front hub will have a different OLN spacing, and some odd spoking options to limit the choice of rims. Same with the special rear hub you'll need for the special electronic-compatible cassettes (nobody thought you be able to use existing, I hope). How about only offering the shift buttons built-into special handlebars, which then don't fit conventional stems?

RNICE

I feel a little sorry for the original poster - there are a lot of tangents going on here. I got disorientated when dinosaurs and carbs were used as arguments.

There was a time when derailers were new fangled, not trusted, and to some degree mocked. Electronic bike shifting would obviously have its pros and cons. But I think people might be surprised at what a major manufacturer could come up with if they were so inclined.

I agree that there is very little market for it now. But sometimes a product creates the market to get going - look at hybrids and how much money Honda had to shell to get things going.

Simple is nice. Except when its not. Looking at the multi-axial whirly-gig that is the modern cable drive derauler, I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone could make an improvement with servo motors.

I'd look for intermittent technologies - probably the kevlar belt chain that the mtb guys are waiting for would be such a step - to make true electronic shifting possible.

Just my 2c.

old_alfie

Wow, this thread was fun.
Poor OP, the guy's obviously good teasing material and once the bikeshop glass-counter-leaning crowd caught on to that, they mercilessly drove him through a couple near-breakdowns.

Children, like it or lump it, the stuff of OP's wet dreams is coming. (hmm, I really didn't intend a pun there) If you boys don't like it you'll have plenty of options; you can say it's cool and then ignore it and your bikes will be just as good as before the electro-whatchamakallit was introduced, you can buy some of it, (heck, everyone has more than one bike anyway, what's another one more-or-less) or you can act like a jerk railing against it and look even more foolish later when you _do_ buy one. Probably more choices but those three quickly come to mind.

Personally, I probably will think it pretty neat stuff but otherwise ignore it, just won't fit into my stable.

OP?, keep your enthusiasm, the stuff'll be delighting you maybe within the year.
alf

Bikedued

Seeing that my newest derailleured bike is a 14 speed Tesch, it's probably unlikely it will be delighting me. Maybe someone else, but not me.. I'm waiting to see if the designers can fit two more rear cogs on a cassette, and then engineer a floating front chainring to make use of it.,,,,BD

n4zou

I only use the dynamo on my touring bike. I'm a hardcore bike tourer, not a credit card and SAG poser. I don't use hotels, motels or "Sheldon forbid" a Bed and Breakfast where I would recharge batteries by plugging them in the wall. The electronic shift system will do fine for a week so the road bike just gets 4 disposable AAA batteries a week for the stepper motors and a 9 volt battery for the microprocessor every 6 months or so. I use my Smart phone as the display and controller for the bikes electronics so it needs to be recharged every couple of days. I just plug it into the USB port and after riding about 3 hours it's batteries are fully charged. There are still manual shifters on the bike clutched with the stepper motors so if it does quit or you allow the batteries die you can still shift gears exactly the same as down tube friction shifters would be done. As for drag from the dynamo, it's minimal and with quality hub dynamos you can forget to turn the light off and never know it as the drag is so low. Even modern bottle type dynamos have much less drag than the old vintage dynamos. A dry chain has more drag than a bottle dynamo being driven from the tires sidewall. Knobby tires on pavement produce even more drag for the rider than a dynamo.

n4zou

Electronic shifting actually frees you from a manufacturers system. Take modern indexed shifters as case in point. That shifter or brifter is produced for a set number of cogs. You can't use a 9 speed shifter with a 10 speed cog. With electronic shifting you just tell the microprocessor software how many cogs there are and the spacing between them. Want to switch from a two chain ring crank to a tipple? You would need to purchase a new shifter but with electronic shifting you simply tell the software you now have a triple crank and the spacing between them. If your new bike has a different number of cogs and chain rings just tell the software and swap the electronic shift system from the old bike to the new so you never need purchase new shifters.

mp123

Ahh yes! And this reprograming can be accomplished by buying a $129 proprietary SIM chip to tell the system what to do. I think you're on to something

Brian Ratliff

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but I want to point out that both Campy and Shimano have near production ready prototypes of electronic shifting systems out in the professional peloton. They have for several years now.

Given that, and given that there is still no electronic group from either company out on the market, means that neither Campagnolo nor Shimano has found a market for their product. Mavic broke their pick on the electronic groupset. Campy and Shimano will likely not follow suit.

The only reason why they are being tested on the pros is that the framemakers can all make sub-2lb frames, which means under current UCI rules, there's some room to add a little weight to bikes for things like batteries/motors for electronic group sets or performance aids such as powertaps. This is not the case for the consumer market, where people who care about these things want sub-15lb bikes and will not buy something which will add weight for such marginal gain. Nobody will by a $10k bike that weighs 15 lbs, and as long as they are sticking to the current derailleur/crankset/cogset system, there is no logical way for an electronic groupset to weigh less than the mechanical equivilent being as you are adding components made from copper and steel and you need a relatively large battery to drive the thing.

aesmith

I don't really agree with that. Indexed shifters could have been made compatible with differing numbers of speeds, but the makers chose not to. Equally sprocket spacing, and free hub splines could all have been interchangeable between makes. But it isn't, by their choice.

Who thinks that (say) Shimano will make an electronic system which doesn't mean you need to replace any of your existing components?

Brian Ratliff

I hear this argument all the time. That since x was different, went against the grain, and succeeded, then y will do the same thing. But let's look at some of the technology changes and how they affect bicycling.

1) Multiple gears: Shown to allow more gear options than the old wing-screw-and-turn-the-wheel-around method. Racers got beat by a girl because they were stubborn. 'nuff said.

2) Campy style rear derailleur vs. planetary gear internal hub: Allows more than three gearing options. Racers got beat by people who had better than 50%/100%/150% gear ratios.

3) Indexed shifting: Allows faster shifting. Gears don't slip. More riders got into cycling because of this little invention. Racers followed suit when those newbies became racers themselves.

4) Brifters: Allows still faster shifting from the hoods or drops. Can now shift while standing. Racers who had Shimano brifters had the edge over the Campy downtube racers. 'nuff said.

5) 6-7-8-9-10 speed rear cogsets: Each increment allows tighter gear clusters. Won't see 11 speeds, because we already have a 12-25 cogset with a corncob up to 17 teeth and a 12-23 cogset with a corncob up to 19 teeth. No racer needs more than a 25 tooth cog, most not more than 23, and until we change pitch spacing to something less than 1/2 inch, there is no need for 11 speeds. Just adds weight and gives up reliability. Telling is that there is still no 10 speed mountainbike groupset - not durable enough.

6) Electronic shifting???: Benefits are:

a) Nominally faster shifting merely from being able to time the shift so the chain passes through the optimal path from one cog to the other. Shifting under load is optimized. This is the biggest advantage. But is it worth it?

b) Position sensing to eliminate chain rub. Irrelevent to a racer. You cannot even hear or feel chainrub in the peloton anyway.

Dis-benefits:

a) Heavier by definition as you are adding parts and not taking anything away.

b) More complex with the electronics. More things to go wrong with a computer involved.

c) Needs a battery. Doesn't matter the capacity, if it goes flat, you are toast, and there is no good way to charge it inside a couple hours.

So, where's the market? The inventions 1-5 are all revolutionary changes in cycling technology. They all offer tangible and large advantages over the then-current state of the art. Electronic shifting is different. There is no revolutionary change - all it does is make something which is already good, a little better, but at a significant cost. There is no tangible and large advantage, and there is a host of disadvantages. The successful inventions were the ones where the only disadvantage is in price. List a performance disadvantage of something like brifters.

People who make the quoted argument focus on the business successes and say that the new invention will succeed because the successes succeeded. But what about those "revolutionary" inventions that didn't succeed? Remember the automatic shifting bike? Or Mavic's ill-fated attempt of it's own at an electronic groupset? How about belt and gear driven transmissions? All the internal geared racing bikes (now making a comeback, but not as racing drivetrains)? Look at the successes and why they succeeded, and look at the failures and why they failed, and I think you'll find that electronic shifting falls in the latter category.

...
Of course, in a few month's time, I might be eating these words .

Brian Ratliff

Ah, I forgot clipless pedals in my list. Well... you get the idea. Lighter than clips-and-strap pedals and more secure. A no-brainer performance wise.