old_alfie

Folks, can anyone help me with some definitive information to identify a Birmingham Hercules "Sport Model" as being either built in the thirties or in the late-forties?

Has a serial number chart been published?
Can era be determined by the markings on the Hercules 3-spd hub?
Were oil cups used on front hubs and BB shells during the post-war as well as the pre-war period?
Is the forward-sloping top tube any indicator of build era?
What about the lack of a rear-fender white blaze?
Does a DUNLOP rubber saddle made like a tire with plies and cords offer an era clue?

Geeze, so many questions. Anyone have some experience with Birmingham Hercs?
Thanks,
alf

Otis

You might have better luck finding info on your bike here:

https://thecabe.com/vbulletin/index.php

wahoonc

Alf,
The only information that I have and I have yet to determine if it is true or not...Prior to WW2 Hercules bikes were Models like "Q" or "R" after the war they started naming them, Sports, Skyliner, etc. The only other thing that I am sure of is that they were moved to Nottingham after 1954. I have never seen a serial number chart. I have yet to see a catalog later than 1940! other than the occasional page scan.

Aaron

wahoonc

Alf,
I think the tube mounted quadrant shifter may be your key to dating the bike... I was looking for something else in the S-A history files, and it appears that shifter is pre war. It looks like the more modern handlebar shifter was introduced around 1939/40. The scans from the 1940 brochure still show the top tube mounted shifter.

Aaron

YoKev

What a nice looking Hercules! The chain ring and white fenders really make it. Anyhow...

Has a serial number chart been published?
I've never seen one

Can era be determined by the markings on the Hercules 3-spd hub?
I'm not sure

Were oil cups used on front hubs and BB shells during the post-war as well as the pre-war period?
Yes

Is the forward-sloping top tube any indicator of build era?
Not sure

What about the lack of a rear-fender white blaze?
As far as I know, that indicates pre-war. During the war, the white blaze was made mandatory to see bicycles easier, or so I hear...

Does a DUNLOP rubber saddle made like a tire with plies and cords offer an era clue?
Can you take a closer picture of the saddle?

rhm

I don't know if this information will be useful to you, but the oil port on my ca. 1950 Norman was marked "Garland England". The same oil port is on the same bike's hub, a 1948 SA AW that didn't come with the same bike. No, that's probably not that helpful. I understood the white blaze to be a requirement for bicycles sold in England, not export bicycles. At any rate my ca. 1950 Norman does not have the white blaze. Neither does my 1963 Raleigh, now that you mention it.

You may find this article useful:
https://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/hanc...satriggers.pdf

old_alfie

Just a tad of follow up to keep the dialog flowing in this thread; the bike came to me with two "stories", both came from the seller. Story number one was told to me during my first conversation with the seller and came about over his lunch-break from work while he was at my house buying a bike from me. Seller had an old uncle who had been in the Navy during WWII doing North Atlantic convoy escort duty. During his several port calls in England, Scotland, or Wales Uncle became enamored of the English bicycles and somehow obtained this Hercules which then, he smuggled home on board his destroyer.

Nice fun story and I'd love to keep it, embellish it, and make it the story of the Hercules, what the heck, it was over sixty years ago so who'd know different as more time goes by.

That story would make this Herc a used one when Uncle Henry got it during The War and thus, built pre-War.

HOWEVER, there is story number two to deal with: Story number two was told me when I got to seller's house that same evening to buy the Herc. Apparently seller's wife remembers seller's family history differently than he does, and her story is that after the War when Uncle Henry was back home in The States down on the farm (they were rural small-town people) he bought this Herc by mail-order direct from the manufacturer in England. Wife backs up that story by remembering what seller's mother told about the entire extended family having gathered to watch Uncle Henry un-box and assemble his new bicycle which had just arrived from England. I can visualize a whole passle of relatives driving out to a small Illinois town in their Model A's, LaSalles, and Nashes. Wife's memory is that mother-in-law said the bike was bought new, which would make the Herc a post-War.

I ought add that both seller and wife are currently aged perhaps 45-50 and also that every one of the relatives who would have been alive at the end of WWII is now dead and gone.

I am reaching the conclusion that the specific age of the bike really isn't important to me or to my plans for the bike. There will be no "restoring" done by me, only cleaning and lubing, modern tires / tubes and brake pads, and if possible I'll change out the Hercules hub threaded "driver" for a S/A splined one so I can use a 22T cog. I'll have to be pretty careful during cleaning so as to not damage the still-very intact and bright pin striping and decals.

So I guess I'd love for the Herc to really be a pre-War so I could tell the smugglrd-home-on-a-destroyer legend. Hmm, I may anyway depending on the audience of the moment.

Thanks folks for the replies so-far,
alf

viscount

Don't know enough about Hercules to answer any qs definitively, but I do know that the V-CC (Veteran Cycle Club) club here in UK has an extensive library of catalogues and expert advice available to members.
Check:
https://www.v-cc.org.uk/

Membership fees are around £12 per annum.

I'm a member and if you PM me I will explain more details.

wahoonc

As a side note...IIRC white fender paint was not required if the bike had white fenders to begin with...

Aaron

FlatTop

Were the Hercules' 3-speed hubs not dated, as Sturmey-Archers were? No experience with pre-Raleigh Hercs.

old_alfie

There doesn't appear to be any date marked on this Hercules hub. The markings it does have are the following:

A TYPE 9
HERCULES
--3 Speed--
Made in England

I have no familiarity with the Hercules "type" designations of the hubs, altho I do believe I remember reading someone once mention a Type B.
alf

old_alfie

Veteran Cycle Club must be off the air, at least for now anyway. I tried your link as well as a couple GOOGLE listings for the club and come up every time unable to locate the website.

I'll keep trying for a few days.
Thanks,
alf

wahoonc

I just got it to come up with no problems...

Aaron

old_alfie

I must be in a dead-end cul-de-sac of the internet, I'm still not getting into them from any direction. Aaron, you must have a subtler touch on the keyboard than I.
alf

wahoonc

Alf,
Check you security settings in your browser, also clear you cache and toss the stale cookies

I am on a fairly slow aircard connection thru Sprint PCS and it loaded with no problem.

Aaron

viscount

I got no problems from the link here either!
Might be good to enter the address directly into the address bar.
If that doesn't work I'm at a loss.
Nothing entered there will work then.