choddo

It will always be legislators and never manufacturers that drive safety standards but I agree it shouldn’t be down to a single city.

cat0020

Have you ever seen the manufacturing process of the batteries you speak of?
How many times have you spoken or written with battery manufacturers about their manufacturing or testing process?

Why do you have to assume my disposition about e-mopeds?
Have I ever announced to you that I like them or love them?
Does that not seem personal to you?
Your input seem to always have assumption about me before making your input.
How do you know that I don't care about an important issue?

Regulated or not, if product fail at the end user, end user is likely to have some responsibility to the failure.
Sure, it's easier to blame the manufactures for poor products when you see reports from media that have never spoken to the manufacturer about their processes. It's easier to regulate the manufacture than to educate the end users.
In the US, people seem to be demanding of manufactures for all things that go wrong with the product.
Shipping damage is blamed on manufacturer for not provide enough protection when shipping companies simply ignore the instructions on the box.
How many bike review videos they show the presenter not following the instructions to assembly?
How many review videos show the rider not following traffic laws or ridden the bike beyond its designed performance until the motor or battery gives out?
I feel these regulations are shifting the responsibility from end users to manufacturers.
Likely, the regulations would drive the cost to go higher, and end users will still get into accidents and battery fires will still occur.

zandoval 

For sure... But there is allot of crap made right here too.

RATS!

veganbikes

You are constantly posting the new e-mopeds often, you do seem to speak highly of them. I often see posts from you about something new in that world. I don't think it is a far stretch or even a stretch in the least. In terms of not caring, reading what you have wrote in this thread seems to lead to a lack of caring or at least trying to say it isn't an issue and usually when someone tries to downplay the issue it is because they generally don't care about it. Maybe I am somehow wrong it happens but from previous posts from you not just in this thread and from your demeanor in this thread it certainly doesn't feel that way. You have a thread dedicated to Chinese Utility e-mopeds where most of the bikes you mention are e-mopeds (with a few cargo e-bikes scattered in like the Bosch equipped U.S. Mail truck) so I am unsure what conclusions I should be drawing from that?

The manufacturer is creating the batteries and they are not being regulated and tested by organizations like UL that is just fact. You can go into other stuff and that is fine yes an end user has some responsibility but a battery that is not UL listed and not regulated can very much be a problem and having those basic tests and certifications is not a bad thing and trying to shift the blame around instead of just saying yes they should be regulated is just silly. A battery shouldn't get to a point where it is dangerous by plugging it in with the supplied charger. Both it and the charger should have a UL or similar rating and it shouldn't need to be argued here.

If the batteries are tested and regulated, fires shouldn't occur that is the whole point of them. Yes things can happen but they are going to be less likely to happen if there is regulation. The battery prices for Bosch or Shimano haven't really changed much and they are UL or similarly listed. If prices have to go up SO BE IT. I would rather have safer products that cost a little more than unregulated junk just to save a buck. I am not saying that is necessarily your direct position but money should not get in the way of basic safety and regulation. If it is needed it is needed.

Online reviews and shipping damage aren't what is being discussed here. Maybe if you leave personal issues aside...

FBinNY 

Unlike you, I don't like to personalize discussions about issues. However, since you ask----- I'm a manufacturing engineer, and quality issues like this fall within my area of expertise. No, I've no direct contact with Li-ion battery makers, and the ONLY battery factory I ever visited made batteries for US submarines. But. this isn't about the details of making batteries, it's about the need to design, produce quality batteries, not prone to internal shorts or overheating. It's also about quality control to ensure that what leaves the factory meets the basic design goals. All of this is well established science, so we're not talking about anything new or unattainable. Li-ion batteries are not new, and the various standards have been in place for years. If your laptop has a removable battery, pull it out and check for a sticker which probably says CE, which is the most common certification.

As for your comment that it will raise prices --- yes, that's possible, but only at the bottom end. Better makers already produce to globally accepted standards, and don't have to change (or charge more for) anything. However, low end producers, producing low quality batteries will have to either step up, or move on.

Lastly, consider options. Li-ion batteries ARE causing fires, not only in apartments, but on trucks, and cargo ships while in transit. Fortunately not on planes, because they're already blocked from air cargo. So,for fans of E-bikes it comes to a simple choice ----- either find ways to reduce the fire hazard, or face increasing restrictions on bringing E-bikes into residential buildings.

BTW- while I cheer NYS's proposal on certificate requirements, I don't consider it a solution. Most likely, the real solution will come from the USDOT, which regulates movement of hazardous goods. The best solution would require marking the outside of all shipping boxes containing a Li-ion battery above a specified size, and the certification. This is already the rule for many classes of hazardous products, so the idea is well understood, and proven to work. Carriers will rapidly adopt rules and refuse to haul uncertified batteries, and the problem will solve itself. Once USPS, FEDEX, the USPS and others restrict uncertified batteries, backed up with serious shipper fines fro violations, we can move forward.

cat0020

That's a nice bunch of word salad; do you even read what you post?
What's "far stretch" is you pretend like you know anything about me.
Can you even stay on topic of thread?

Seems like you're more obsessed about me & my posts than contributing to the discussion topic of this thread.

What I care about is not the discussion topic, but you seem to want to pretend like you know what I care about.


Seems clear to me that you can draw the conclusion that you're a forum stalker.

How many battery manufacturers do you know of?
Have you spoken or been in contact with them about their manufacturing process?
Can you name the manufacture?
Do you know that they actually follow UL regulations for every battery they produce?

And how many non-UL batteries have you owned or used yourself to determine that they are unsafe?
Have you experienced fire with them?
If a product is significantly less expensive, performs as it should and without certification, you would never try it to determine the safety of the product yourself?

Did I say I have personal issues with online reviews or shipping damage?
I used them as an example of misguided end users that blame manufacturers for when their product fails. Please learn to read.

Submarines are hardly consumer products, you're comparing apples to oranges if you compare the regulations on submarine batteries vs ebike batteries.
If you don't like to personalize discussions about issues, why compare apples to oranges?

As with veganbikes, how many non-UL batteries have you owned or used yourself to determine that they are unsafe?
How many that you know of have gone up in flames?
Do you think consumers do not try to repair or modify the battery capacity on their own that may cause fire?

Yeah I've seen that YT video, too.
That's some rough seas for that boat carrying those electric cars & trucks to surf through.
Do you know for sure that those car batteries just combust on their own or are you just speculating?
Are those car batteries on the boat also unsafe batteries that you personally know of?

Cheer as you may, legislators will put into laws whichever would get them re-elected. Ebike battery fire is hot in the news with public concern.
Legislate them so voters would think something important is getting accomplished.
If you think having new regulations is going to reduce or eliminate batteries catching fire in a more effective way than educating people about how to keep ALL batteries safe; then so be it.

As I said before, I am far more worried about getting hit by cars in traffic than if my ebike battery would ever catch on fire.
If you think the opposite is true, it seems to be you've been brainwashed by the news.

FBinNY 

I don't use unknown Li-ion batteries, and am not equipped to determine the integrity of their internal construction. (which explains the first)



The last part is a most glaring example of an apples vs. oranges argument here, and one you insist on repeating.

Otherwise, I agree with many of your points, though none are a valid argument against the limited concept of requiring makers certify their batteries to a recognized national or international standard.

Yes, of course, consumer education is needed, but it's easier to remind people to look for UL certification on batteries, than to teach electro-chemistry, and WHY lithium fires are a unique and severe hazard. But this is also part of the certification process, whereby batteries and chargers may use unique plugs, to reduce chances of using an incorrect charger.

Also, some of the warning labels on batteries are part of certificate requirements.

In any case, we don't live in a zero sum world, and certification requirements in no way preclude moving on other fronts.

Like any complex problem, the solution to reduce Li-ion battery risks, inbolves action on multiple fronts. certification is not a magic bullet solution, but it's a key part of any more comprehensive approach.

Of course, dealing with battery fire risks starts with admitting that they exist, and it seems that, with at least some people, we haven't cleared that hurdle.

‐----------
BTW any time someone opts to call me names, or accuse me of trolling, I consider the source, then shrug it off. I stand by my posts, and assume readers will read what I post, along with others and draw their own conclusions. So feel free to personalize it. I don't care, and am happy to let others form their opinions of either of our credibility.

noglider 

@cat0020:

I've read this thread. My goodness. I know @FBinNY. He's a smart guy, and he knows a lot about things, and he generally doesn't boast or tell us how deep and broad his knowledge is. That's a clue for you, but you're not noticing that you're out of your depth. With each thing you say, he can tell you why he's wrong. I notice that he treats you with respect, and you don't notice it. Maybe you should just back off and try to learn from him. It seems to me you're just looking for a fight. I haven't seen you assert anything significant on this topic, and I don't know why you're working so hard to misinterpret FB and to pick a fight with him.

When you say a submarine isn't a consumer product, you're missing the point by a planet. He knows processes, not just products. That counts. But you don't seem to understand that and why it's important.

So my suggestion is that you don't respond to me or him for at least a day and consider what he has said. Maybe you should consider what I said, too.

If you have experience in designing products and specifying safety requirements, after your time-out, go ahead and tell us how to solve this e-bike problem. But only if you can do so with experience, because it's really silly for us to observe this train wreck of a discussion with one person with a lot of experience and another person who just seems to want to argue.

FBinNY 

Clarification

Please do not let the reference to submarine batteries confuse the issues at hand.

When I wrote,

"No, I've no direct contact with Li-ion battery makers, and the ONLY battery factory I ever visited made batteries for US submarines. But, this isn't about the details of making batteries,...",

I thought the context would make it clear that I wasn't claiming it as a credential, but rather a disclaimer of relevant battery expertise.

veganbikes

Wow that was amazing. You are denying facts and no I am not stalking you. I know you want to make up that narrative but it is a public forum that we are both a part of. There is nothing stalking about recognizing someone makes posts about something. I don't know why you are trying to deny it though, you post about e-mopeds often. I don't know why you have to deny it and also claim somehow that is off topic as we are talking about batteries and those batteries are typically found in e-mopeds. Either there is something wrong in your brain or you don't understand your own self and your own posts. I don't follow you anywhere else I am not searching for you, I just notice posts because there happens to be a sub-forum that we are both involved in so it is not like you are making some private posts that I have hacked into they are public posts in a public forum that anyone can get access to with an internet connection. Also the Earth is round and Elvis is not alive at Legoland in California.

I don't use non-listed batteries I have no interest at all in testing anything I don't want to burn down my house in any way shape or forum and have no interest in non regulated e-mopeds or the few e-bikes as well. I don't see how owning or not owning or talking to the manufacturers is needed here. I get that yes you are trying to somehow make it not about them and go way off topic while whining that everyone else is off topic. Either you want the standards and want regulations or you are fine with unregulated batteries and the issues that go along with them. What side are you on if we are all getting you wrong?

You can teach people how to use batteries and charge batteries and that is all well and good but non-regulated batteries just aren't needed at all and trying to stick up for them and blame consumers for that is just silly. This is not the QR issue back 10 years ago that Trek and a few others created where people just didn't know how to use a QR these are low cost batteries that are not regulated and can and have caused fires and no regulation won't solve everything but it is a good step and should be adopted universally. Bosch, Shimano, Brose and others have adopted batteries and their costs haven't changed and I haven't had any issues so far (aside from the occasional arcing on batteries that use the Rosenberger plug getting a piece of metal between the plug and the charging port on the bike but that so far hasn't caused anything more than a spark and a dead battery because the BMS did it's job.

Are you involved in some way financially with some of these low initial cost e-moped/bike manufacturers or something else? Is that why you have the opposition or is there something else we should know?

Regulate batteries and chargers, get them UL or similarly listed and those that aren't can be banned from import or sales in the U.S.. Also have more education about Li-Ion and other batteries and how to charge them and care for them. I don't see a need for unregulated batteries and chargers and I think everyone will be fine without them except maybe the manufacturers but I could care less about them if they don't want to make safer products that is on them.

2old

I'm in agreement with those above who realize the battery problem, and can't believe we need to discuss this issue since it's covered by the media and the changes manufacturers are making. IMO, we're in the cross-hair of the insurance companies who will eventually exclude homes or businesses that contain Li batteries. Eventually all local businesses will have safe batteries, but that doesn't help for direct to consumer products. IMO, and as stated or intimated above, we need to curtail or regulate these products. I have informed the mods that this seems to be a silly argument.

FBinNY 

I don't understand. Just because you disagree, or even thought an argument is silly, doesn't imply a problem.

This is a public forum, and disagreements, even silly arguments, is how we flesh things out. Sometimes we need a devil's advocate, intentional or not, to help people see the whole picture.

I hope, that if the Mods see fit to follow up, they'll scroll through and find no policy violations.

2old

I don't understand; didn't you state that we're entitled to our own opinion?

FBinNY 

Absolutely, and so is everyone else. So, I'm not reporting this to anybody.

cat0020

There is valid opinion and there is invalid opinion, the difference is whether you can provide any data to support your opinion.

Have any of you ever talked to a fireman about these battery fires?
Have any of you ever read a fire report from the FDNY?
Have any of you ever lived in an apartment or house with 100 y-o electrical wiring in NYC?
Have any of you ever met any ebike rider that modified their battery on their own and had the battery combust?

The chance of any battery going up in flames while being charged or while the ebike is being ridden is miniscule when compared to the chance of a rider getting hit or killed by a vehicle in traffic.

So called perceived danger of battery fire is mostly made up by the media for the public to worry and ignore the problem of cyclists getting injured or killed in traffic.

Know your priorities, maybe legislators would actually come up with regulations that help the public.

tds101 

Batteries and their respective chargers need to be regulated and certified. I'm in 100% agreement. If it costs more $$$, so be it. It will save lives, and so will educating people on the proper usage, charging, and storage of these items. There's no debate to be made.

FBinNY 

Good point, so let's see.

There's plenty of reporting about Li-ion battery fires, including quotes of fire marshals, the coast guard, witnesses, etc. So, turning it around, do you have any evidence that everybody is lying, or making up stories? Maybe out of some conspiracy to distract people from bicycle related injuries?

Please, this is a forum, and debate is welcome (at least by most), but it remains up to readers to make the call on opinion validity.

As for the rest, the wiring in my home is only 95 years old, but is still fine. In fact, and ironically, every time I replace an original switch, the new one doesn't hold up more than 10 years or so.

In any case there are two ways to learn. You can burn your fingers making popcorn, or you can watch your brother do so.

I don't need to burn my own home down to KNOW that Li-ion batteries cause fires.
Seriously?

This is a classic strawman argument (which youve repeated a few times) creating a fictitious comparison of unrelated things. I won't waste mine or anyone else's time pursuing it.

If we're going to debate issues, let's stick to the point. Do you have any rational arguments against requiring UL certification of Li-ion batteries?
Please explain specifically how it would hurt.

veganbikes

Me thinks that maybe they have a monetary stake in one of these e-moped companies and they have no interest in the UL listings? So rather than just say UL listings for chargers and batteries are a good thing they are trying to deflect and distract so they don't offend the company that they might have money in? I could be wrong but so far they haven't yet said one way or the other if they are or aren't involved.

However if I was monetarily involved with a company and wanted to keep making money on a product I knew was potentially hazardous I would do what I could to blame everyone and everything else but my product. However I was working for a company that sold a product that was unwilling to be UL listed or regulated by someone trusted I would probably stop working there or fight hard to push them towards UL listing but I care about safety and also would love to have something like that on my product because it would be another selling point. If I can have UL certification that is a good sign I have a more quality product and I could make more money on it should I need to or keep it the same but have a leg up on the competition. That is just me though certain kitties seem like they want to go a different route?!

2old

Be my guest: report it to everybody, and I'm sure you're the type who needs to get the last word, but I won't hear it since you'll be ignored.

ARider2

I think batteries and e-bike components should be required to be UL certified. PERIOD. That is my opinion and I’m sticking to it. All of my e-bikes are UL certified.

CrimsonEclipse

In a way, the resultant changes brought on by the fires and deaths can be a overall positive ones.
It's also a signal that the electrical bikes are not a fad and are a permanent evolution of transportation

Electric cars were considered a fad by many. When the NCAS connector became a national standard, it showed that electrical vehicles are the next, permanent change in transportation.

Electrical bikes certainly do need an extensive list of components that require standardization and enforcement.
UL is a good start, connectors for the batteries, chargers also need basic safety standards, connectors, power ratings, and manufacturing standards.

There are also new battery technologies that reduce fire risk significantly and should be incorporated to any battery intended to be stores indoors.

cat0020

I never said batteries don't cause fire,
I merely asked if you have any evidence from official fire reports of FDNY that state the battery is the cause of the fire.
Reporting in the media is one thing,
but an official fire report takes weeks, if not months to become available within FDNY or to the public.

Is your home a stand alone?
So if more modern switches don't last as long as the vintage ones in your house, that would apply to everywhere else?
Have you ever thought about living with a dozen or more families in the same building?
and what kind of electrical load that might put on the wiring?



Where did you read that I said that I'm against UL certification specifically?
I stated that you need to determine your priorities.
Far more cyclists get injured or killed by motor vehicles in traffic than having a battery light up on fire.
If you want regulation, why not start with regulations that save lives when accidents occur in traffic?
That would be far more effective than regulations in battery certification.
Yes, I've repeated a few times,
yet you still refuse to acknowledge the important fact that more cyclists get killed than battery fire related incidents.

If you want less battery fire to stop or reduced, educate the battery users to know how to use/operate/charge the batteries.

Regulations are just to make people think & feel they are safe,
but if people don't know how to use the battery in a safe manner, we will still have battery fires; no matter what regulations we have in place.
Once again, know your priorities.
Is that serious enough for you?

tds101 

Deaths caused by auto accidents, and via other means, are irrelevant to the conversation. The topic is Ebike battery standards and regulation. This is "whataboutism", and it's childish.

mpetry912 

Not to mention crappy wiring in 100 year old buildings.

while I applaud NY's "law" about selling UL approved bikes and chargers, you know what will happen, the constant quest for the "best cheep"
will see trucks full of off-label ebikes coming over from Jersey to be sold for cash.

Reference Bernie Kerick and selling tax free cigarrettes out of the back of a van. Just tryin to make a buck here.

/markp

veganbikes

cat0020 you don't seem to want to actually say UL listings are a good thing and we should have batteries and chargers listed by them or similar regulatory body. It would be an easy thing to say and you aren't willing to say it, you want to continue going off on a tangent and trying to downplay the issue. Everyone else in the thread from what I have seen has at least said something similar to the above in regards to UL listings. Are you opposed or are you for UL listings just answer that simple question and don't deflect and let us know which side you are on.

I will make it easy for you either just say A or B you can literally have a post that is either or as there is zero need for anything else in that one response either A (opposed) or B (for)

A. I am opposed to UL listings (or a similar regulatory/safety body) for e-bike/moped batteries and chargers

B. I am for UL Listings (or a similar regulatory/safety body) for e-bike/moped batteries and chargers