ToniH. 

Hello,

I have been searching for a vintage randonneur bike in a small 48-51 size for a while. I recently found an Alex Singer in a perfect size and character for what I thought was quite reasonable price. But then after some reading I learned that in the 70's some of these where made by an other small french company called CNC... and this one is one of them. I was just wondering what is the general opinion about these CNC made versions? Are these collectible at all and how do they ride?

Also I was thinking to convert it to 650b wheels. It has now mafac racers. The brake pad seems to be at the quite top end of the reach so do you think it would be easy to convert these into a 650b?

Bit torn here if I should still get it and make it as a nice daily commuter that I would not have to worry that much than a "real" Singer or wait for a different one to surface.

Seems that unfortunately I can't post any pictures yet.

All the best,
Toni

cudak888 

Giving you an excuse to respond (and ramp your posts up to 10)...hello, Toni!

I take it your daily commute must be absolutely charming, if you feel comfortable doing it on a Singer

-Kurt

ToniH. 

Thanks for the support.

Yes well... I had a bit of a revelation one day when I was talking with my partner about shirts. I had this really nice hand made shirt I bought from Japan that I never used because it felt just bit too special for daily use. Then she explained that the only way to justify spending extra money on a quality clothing is that it is used as much as possible. Since the quality is better, it will last longer and pay it self back at the end. So since then I have stopped to baby my treasures from bikes to clothing and use them as much as possible.

TenGrainBread 

Yes, the Singer shop contracted with CNC during the bike boom during the early 70s to make very nice stock bikes that would be sold for less than a full-custom Singer, to satisfy demand. They are generally black with red trim and although they don't have the special features Singers are known for (bilaminate lugs, braze-on centerpulls, custom racks and mounts, etc...), they are high-end bikes made by a high-end production shop.

These are great bikes. I would just caution against paying what you would for a custom Singer for one of these.

CO_Hoya 

gugie 

Alex Singer is one of the "Big Three" constructeurs, as you might already know. Another would be Jo Routens. As a coincidence, another forum member is selling one that is just your size.

unterhausen

As far as converting to 650b, you should be able to do it with a brake switch to Mafac RAIDs. I suspect the rack could be made to fit.

Duke7777

I have a couple of high-end CNCs from this era, one race bike and one 650B randonneur. They are great bikes - light, well made, and nice handling. Comparing the details, I would say this CNC/Singer was probably made by a different builder than my CNCs, but I doubt you would ever be disappointed in the actual quality or performance of this bike. It looks nicely set up and well maintained, although not so nice that you would be worried about using it regularly. I see it has now sold, at a price that would be low for a Singer-made bike but high for a good CNC, so probably reasonable if it fits your needs well.

merziac

Hi Toni,

Welcome aboard, glad you found us, a more accomplished lot of enablers you will not find. As has probably been stated, go around, say "Hi" and/or comment on 10 posts for pics, it takes two days.

I would strongly encourage you to check out the JPR from @TenGrainBread, as stated by @gugie.

It is your size which can be hard to come by in something this desirable and will come with custom racks from one of our own for cost, no small feat and a stellar deal you will never find again.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...neur-bike.html

unterhausen

That Routens is a great deal

mpetry912 

I've owned 5 different Singers and currently have one "built for me" in 2000. Remember that AS is basically a neighborhood bike shop and in the 70s and 80s they were really scraping it. Were it not for the Japanese collectors they probably would have gone out of business. These collectors mainly ordered top of the range bikes with all the racks and lights, all the candy. there's a wonderful book that catalogs many of these bikes. Largely because of the exchange rates, these bikes were pretty expensive back in the day.

Having said that the Singer shop also had some lower cost bikes on offer and the frames for those bikes were built by a couple of outsourced contractors. They are not bad bikes and may share the Singer "design" with frame angles and fittings similar to those of the "maison" bikes, and in fact the racks were built by the Singer shop. Rene Herse also had a down line offering, I believe they were called "Federal" and it was this range of bikes that equipped many of the European bike touring groups led by Dr. Clifford Graves of San Diego.

The CRC bikes I have seen have been racing bikes similar to that black one shown in the post above, they are still nice but don't have all the details of the top of the line Singers. As long as you understand what you are buying and bid accordingly, there's nothing wrong with it and it could be a desireable bike.

My 2 favorite Singers shown below, the blue one I still own and ride occaisionally, the black one of happy memory. Both of these bikes have the integrated head tube lugs which is a cool and unique feature developed by Ernest and Roland Csuka.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

merziac

Especially with new custom racks at cost of materials.

repechage

That black CNC Singer is handsome, but I am not excited at the compromises to obtain the probably needed Top Tube measure.
Note how steep the seat tube is, and look at the position of the seat in relation to the bottom bracket. That is FORWARD.

It is difficult if not impossible to avoid toe clip overlap with 700c wheels and fenders, even with 165 mm cranks. The head tube is lax, but not scary so, I think this is a case where 650c diameter wheels would be a better solution. I know, hard to get larger cross-section tires for those rims, andfor 650b to be of any help, hard to find narrow enough tires.

merziac

They have moved on to @TenGrainBread's JPR.

cudak888 

Agreed. The geometry is funky and a compromise. Definitely no problem on any average production bike (or even some nice 531 steeds), but for Alex Singer money, there should be zero compromises.

I also see a Philippe death stem too.

-Kurt

TenGrainBread 

@mpetry912 what fantastic bikes. Pleasure to see them.

mpetry912 

thank you ! Piece of cycling lore.

As for that red Routens, buy it ! it looks sensational.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

SuperLJ

I was alarmed to see this particular Philippe/Atax stem referred to as a "death stem", as I've had one in use continuously on my Bertin for 40 years with no issues whatever.


A quick search with the Google Machine brought up a couple of articles you wrote concerning ONE example you had which broke, and that was about it. Apparently, no one else has had problems with what you refer to as "French junk".


Could you please point me towards any links or other evidence that these stems are inferior or dangerous?


Thanks!

cudak888 

Ok, death stem for one then. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the one on your Bertin has served you well, but I reserve the right to get the willies when I see one of these.

-Kurt

P.S.: No need to be snarky about my experiences. I've had poor experiences with high-end French stuff (and I ought to qualify that: Mass produced high-end French stuff). I'm wary of these bits for a good reason: I appreciate the one life I have.

SuperLJ

I wasn't trying to denigrate the experience you had with your stem, it's just that I had never heard anything but good things about these. AVA? Pivo? Sure, but not Philippe. To me, it seems maybe a little extreme to label these as "death stems" because, out of the many thousands that were produced (a good many of which are still in use), yours broke.

Personally, I've always had trouble with vintage high-end Italian stuff. Broken crank arms, poor shifting, wimpy brakes, etc. You know what gives me the willies? Let's talk about the Cinelli 1R!

cudak888 

Funny, I've seen Pivo models that are OK - I actually have one here that I can post a pic of tomorrow, for reference.

Quite frankly, I just approach all French aluminum bits with suspicions of durability, unless it's something that has a fantastic and well-known reputation - such as TA's Pro 3 or Pro 5 crankarms. I must say that I really want to have an opportunity to work on a Singer or Herse someday though; I'd like to know what these constructeur parts feel like to work with (excellent, I hope).

You have a great point about Italian bits though - I probably haven't been exposed to enough of their low-end stuff. Can't complain about classic Campagnolo Record sidepulls though - believe it or not, they work even better with upright-bar brakes. I'd put a pair on a Raleigh Sports if they had the reach

I won't dispute that the Cinelli 1R is a worrysome beast. I have two - one came in a parts lot on a Giro bar, and I'm not about to use it. The other came on my '78 Raleigh Pro, and the only reason it hasn't been swapped is because of the leather stitched bars which I'm afraid of undoing.

-Kurt

mpetry912 

I think that a very careful inspection of any vintage aluminum part is not a bad idea. Long stems and maybe brake arms especially - things which, if they failed, might endanger your safety or life. These parts are 40+ years old now - far past their expected service life. Carefully inspect for cracks and other compromising damage before riding !

Returning to the "Alex Singer" topic - I mentioned above the special head tube treatment with the integrated head tube lugs. I found this interesting picture after brazing that shows how they did it. This is a unique feature that only bikes delivered from the shop would have. A Singer delivered thru Cupertino Bike Shop would have conventional head tube lug treatment, along with Campagnolo rear fork ends and bridges set up for bolt on brakes, not brazed on posts.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

ToniH. 

Hello everyone!


Finally back from the posting abyss. First of all, I'm overwhelmed how nice and helpful everyone have been with your replies. You seem to have a great community here at the forum.


The bike CO_Hoya posted is indeed the one that I was talking about but as merziac stated there was something bit more special just behind the corner. It was quite a thriller to try to contact Mr. TenGrainBread but after a creating another account just to contact him and refreshing my email's inbox every 5 minutes we where able to close the deal on the Routens.


Its a nice feeling to find a bike that has all the qualities that you have been looking, in a right size, good price and even from a such a well regarded maker. Glad that these play out like this sometimes. Thanks for everyone who was involved in making it happen.


Also big thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge about Singers. I think I will keep my eyes open and maybe I'll catch one of the Singer mades in the future. Or a herse.


-Toni

Giuanin

Death stem yesterday: https://sporza.be/nl/2019/09/15/simo...ud-stuurbreuk/