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Catastrophic Air Loss on Tubeless Air

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Catastrophic Air Loss on Tubeless Air

Old 01-14-20, 05:26 PM
  #26  
tomtomtom123
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
IMHO it's not worth it for amateur riders even on a mountain bike. Replacing or patching a punctured tube is fast, easy and doesn't involve messy sealant liquids.

Lots of people disagree with me though. I can't say that I'm positive about the crap that manufacturers are pushing on us.
The way I see it, all this talk of "burping" from a hard bump or something pressing against the sidewall seems to be quite an inconvenience for saving a bit of weight by not using a tube. With a tube, you won't (usually) get any accidental release of air from bumping into something. I've never gotten a "snakebite", but maybe others have (although I have always had tires wider than 1.6" (40mm) in thickness). Perhaps it's something more common for people doing jumps and drops (or riding on extremely narrow tires) compared to simply riding on smoothly paved roads.

Pinching of tubes between tire and rim is avoidable with careful tire installation. Punctures, at least for me, are usually not a sudden loss of air, but happens over at least several seconds with enough time to slow down and stop. I've been told that the sealant in tubeless setups will seal punctures of the tire, but if you really wanted to, you could also fill tubes with slime, although some people tell me that tubeless sealant is more effective than tube slime. You're still getting less chances of catastrophic air loss with a tube when riding on paved roads.

Someone on another thread mentioned "ghetto tubeless" for rims that aren't designed for tubeless. It involves wrapping the rim walls with a tube sliced down the center, installing the tire, filling it with sealant, pumping it with air, and then trimming the excess tube that sticks out from in between the rim and tire. Then, every time you want to remove and reinstall your tire, you have to sacrifice a new tube. Seems kind of pointless when you can just use the tube normally instead of cutting it up.
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Old 01-14-20, 05:40 PM
  #27  
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tubeless clearly has advantages when riding in areas with thorns that are all over the place and result in getting ten flats a day or more.
this fellow made it clear that there was no apparent and clear cut or tear or whatever on tire, so it wasnt that.

jimbo--you didnt get back on your weight re wondering about the 80psi thing? Maybe you are sick of the discussion, but I would be curious to know if this was a factor.
I have no plans to run tubeless in the near future, but like to learn new things and get good info to stick in my craw for future reference to hopefully avoid something like what happened to you.

oh, I have witnessed someone go down in a turn with a regular tubed wheel, where it was pretty obvious that the guy had had a slow leak but hadnt noticed it, but going around the 90 degree corner had either the tire simply slide/fold due to lowered pressure. After checking up on the guy with other people, one of us moved his bike and noticed his front had gone down. Didnt appear to be a regular rider and probably didnt feel or notice the front going down before he turned---maybe not connected to this event, but I can see the similarity at least to some extent despite being a tube story.
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Old 01-14-20, 06:34 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by tomtomtom123 View Post
The way I see it, all this talk of "burping" from a hard bump or something pressing against the sidewall seems to be quite an inconvenience for saving a bit of weight by not using a tube. .
No comment on the rest of your post, but a tubeless tire generally weighs the same compared to a standard tire + tube (using a Conti GP5 comparison of 25mm -- 295 vs 221 grams for TL vs Std).
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Old 01-14-20, 07:07 PM
  #29  
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and thorn goat head issue aside, I generally ride about 5000kms per year and maybe get one flat a year average over many many years. And can have seasons with no flats. So for my riding area and where I have toured, Im a touring guy, so far its not been an issue using tubes from a pragmatic side of things. Have toured through Central America and about half of Mexico (and lots of touring over the decades) and no flat problems at all really, so I'll be sticking to what I know and am used to....for now anyway....maybe one day.
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Old 01-14-20, 07:13 PM
  #30  
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Like Andy, the first thought that came to mind was he rolled the tire. Seen this happen with tubular tires and I suspect if the rim is hookless, it is very possible to do with a tubeless tire, except with a tubeless tire it may roll just enough to allow a massive rush of air out and then settle onto the rim again. Speculation for sure, but certainly this needs to be looked at.
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Old 01-14-20, 07:23 PM
  #31  
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Seems like there are occasions in which tubeless bike systems "bloot", at least in the MTB world (I don't know anything about road bikes). Happened unexpectedly to a friend, but no injury and he aired it back up and has had no more problems. My son was part of a group that rescued an individual who had that occur on a gnarly section off road. The guys face wasn't a petty sight. The best "protection" that I "know" (but maybe not really) of is a tight fitting tire on the rim.
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Old 01-14-20, 07:23 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Like Andy, the first thought that came to mind was he rolled the tire. Seen this happen with tubular tires and I suspect if the rim is hookless, it is very possible to do with a tubeless tire, except with a tubeless tire it may roll just enough to allow a massive rush of air out and then settle onto the rim again. Speculation for sure, but certainly this needs to be looked at.
to you guys with lots of experience, what do you think of the 80psi thing, could that be a factor?
As a 135lb er , I sometime run my 28s with tubes to maybe 80 rear or a bit less, and then less psi on front tire, for riding on really rough stuff, but thats about my limit--but I ride light also and am careful, and prefer a bit more pressure for hard cornering.
I may be wrong but I assume that this person is heavier than me, so would 80 be a factor in this theory, or would it necessarily need a lowering from that from a slight leak like Andrew thought?
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Old 01-14-20, 07:55 PM
  #33  
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I think there is a tolerance issue with the wheel and tire. I googled your rims and found more than one example of total blowouts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.***...uring_descent/

https://www.velonews.com/2019/10/bik...nd-more_501233
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Old 01-14-20, 08:21 PM
  #34  
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I'm still skeptical of road tubeless in general. I won't run tubeless unless I can run less than 60 PSI or greater than 35mm rubber.

The only way that I would run road tubeless up to 90PSI is with a "matched set" of tires and rims from the same manufacturer. This is one area where the bike industry really needs to get its act together.
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Old 01-14-20, 08:26 PM
  #35  
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While I wholly understand people exercising caution, the avoidance of high-pressure tubeless isn't really founded in anything real-- it's a phobia, I suppose. I have a good bit past 10k miles on tubeless 700x23 and 700x25 tires, and have never really had an issue that I would consider unique to tubeless. I've used four different wheelsets and at least half a dozen different brands of tire, and never had a problem with any of them.
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Old 01-18-20, 11:51 AM
  #36  
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Sorry that I’ve not responded to questions about my accident. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts and feedback.

In initially checking with Giant regarding the setup on their tubeless ready wheels, they recommended 70-80 psi for the 25 mm tires @ my weight, which is 185 lbs.

The time & day of the accident, it was a sunny afternoon about 45 mins before sunset & the temperature was 47 degrees.

BTW, the tire is still holding air as of 11 days post accident.

Going forward, I’m taking the tubeless tires off, putting on Continental 4000s and tubes.

As a side note, I had a new Bontrager Web Cell helmet. It advertises as a 48x (times not %) less likelihood of concussions vs typical foam helmet. I notified them of the accident t and as part of their Accident Replacement Guarantee has one delivered to my house yesterday. I am sending the damaged helmet along with a description of the accident and injury. My “morning after” facial photo would be the mother of all mugshots!

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Old 01-20-20, 07:00 AM
  #37  
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Once on the MUP I came on a fully-kitted road rider at the side of the path staring at her flat tire. Wife and I stopped, and my wife asked her to let me take a look. The tire was about 23 mm (narrow racing clincher rims) and tubeless and the tire was totally separated from the rim. She had just taken delivery of the bike and was out on her first ride. There was no clear sign a puncture or outer surface damage or otherwise of how it started. The sealant was gooey all over the outside of the tire. I tried to realign the tire edges inside the beads and get some air it it, but it didn't work and we were out of options - she had to walk back to her car. I assume that for some reason, perhaps a bump, the bead separated and there was sudden deflation. Tire traction then pulled the beads loose completely.

Just an idea. Can a tubeless bead be knocked out of engagement by riding over a bump with insufficient tire pressure? Is there some kind of bead adhesive that could have helped keep the air in?
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Old 01-20-20, 09:18 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Can a tubeless bead be knocked out of engagement by riding over a bump with insufficient tire pressure? Is there some kind of bead adhesive that could have helped keep the air in?

Yes, it's called "burping." The rider on the MUP had it worst case, because the air volume in a 23c tire is pretty small-- so when it burped, it just went dead flat. The tire was either not fully seated to begin with, or run at far too low of a pressure.

A blast from a CO2 inflator might have gotten it to re-seat. Shame on whatever shop sent her out on the road as a tubeless neophyte on 23c tires.
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Old 01-20-20, 10:29 AM
  #39  
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Nowadays tubeless is great. Yes its more fussy and specific than tubes, but if you have tubeless rims and tubeless tires, following pressure and mounting guidelines they are fine. If you slice your tire and develop an unfixable leak, simply pop a tube in to get you home (thats what should have happened with the 23c rider in story above Road Fan )

Fussy is the key, generally tubeless is more fussy / specific increased maintenance for the advantage of less punctures or more grip.

Gravel : 37 C tire I am at 38ps on a 75kg rider,
Road : 25c I am at 90psi on a 75kg rider

But always go by manufacturers recommendation, that is key.

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Old 01-20-20, 11:34 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by jbucky1 View Post
...But always go by manufacturers recommendation, that is key.[/MENTION]
And therein lies the crux. Consider that their are tycially manufacturers; the rim manufacturer and the tire manufacturer. And sometimes there instructions are conflicting, or one or both don't really give instructions. Then their are the bike stores setting these setups and sending people out (like the women on the MUP) with no clear instructions. Even "experts" on this forum can't come to agreement on procedures and compatibility. So yes, by all means convert to tubeless but understand you are part of the learning curve,
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Old 01-20-20, 11:53 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Amt0571 View Post
IMHO it's not worth it for amateur riders even on a mountain bike. Replacing or patching a punctured tube is fast, easy and doesn't involve messy sealant liquids.

Lots of people disagree with me though. I can't say that I'm positive about the crap that manufacturers are pushing on us.
I'm starting to agree with this. I switched mine and my wife's mtbs over to tubeless and so far I'm not fully impressed. Her bike has had zero trouble but then her tires weigh almost 900g, I can do a good tire and tube less than that and might even be able to get tubeless tires lighter. At least hers could be set up with a floor pump but we're not really seeing a benefit to it with hers. My tires were not tubless specific but claim to be compatible and are on stans rims, they really jam into the bead on it but require a compressor to seat the tire. Even at 40psi I've burped the back tire twice so I'm not getting any benefit of lower pressures it seems. Thinking if I run into any troubles I'll put latex tubes in and add some sealant and just save the weight while having a sealable tire.
From my experience so far I'd never bother with road.
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Old 01-20-20, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84 View Post
And therein lies the crux. Consider that their are tycially manufacturers; the rim manufacturer and the tire manufacturer. And sometimes there instructions are conflicting, or one or both don't really give instructions. Then their are the bike stores setting these setups and sending people out (like the women on the MUP) with no clear instructions. Even "experts" on this forum can't come to agreement on procedures and compatibility. So yes, by all means convert to tubeless but understand you are part of the learning curve,
Yeah, until everyone gets together and agrees on one spec and set of tolerances (I'm not holding my breath), it's up to the tire installer to make sure the pairing is solid. One good practice I've heard is to mount up the tire dry, pump up to full pressure to seat the beads, then let the air out and see how difficult it is to unseat a bead. If it can be pushed off easily, another layer of tape is a good idea before proceeding with sealant and riding. That would help protect against blowouts as well as having the tire come unmounted if it were to lose air out in the field.
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Old 01-20-20, 11:13 PM
  #43  
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ThermionicScott That practice is a good one, I have done this quite a bit especially when using road / thinner tires and do notice a large difference between manufactures. I think the dry fit is always a good thing to do anyway with tubeless. (excluding mtb)

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