eagletree

I registered for all their rides this year, the season pass is everything but a couple of events they want to raise additional money for.

Yes, I won't go crazy if I do it, the speed I go, I'd not make the 200 miles in 16 hours. It also goes back to your comment that training for it does not necessarily mean I'll actually ride it this year. I don't ride busses, so I'd have to arrange transportation back. My friend rides back up after staying for a rest day there. That might interest me more only doing so over a weeks time staying at hotels. Might give me a chance to see what touring is like.

I will develop a training program around this goal though.

Clipped_in

I agree with this! My problem is that I live in hilly/mountainous country and it is difficult to go sufficiently easy for active recovery. Consequently, most of my recovery rides are done inside on rollers. YMMV

eagletree

I have that issue too. All routes have hills to contend with except one. I have an old fluid trainer in the house but that seems a very different kind of work out. If I use low gearing high cadence, I find myself breathing hard and pouring off sweat anything after I warm up. It's a great workout and I try to get one in each night, but it doesn't seem the same as actual riding. I was toying with the idea of buying some rollers since that would appear a skill that engages more muscles than the fluid trainer or an actual ride (somewhat akin to using a fitness or Bosu ball for calisthenics) by intentionally adding additional instability.

big john

Sounds like you'll be fine. Just be rested before the start and the adrenaline will help get you going. Supposed to be fun, right?

Carbonfiberboy 

So don't use high cadence. Or gear down more. Or both. You want to be breathing easily, not even deeply. Of course rollers would be better. Rollers make a recovery ride not so deadly boring.

eagletree

I'll see how this feels tonight just on the trainer because I'll have to buy some rollers. I did take a gentle ride today, as much as possible, the one thing I noted is that keeping the heart rate way down (max at 133, average low 122), really drops the calorie burn. I went from about 700 to 189 for the same route. Power pedals with Strava's Analysis link, appears to be a way of monitoring if you are keeping it a rest day. My wattage fell 30% within active recovery and 40% into endurance. I presume that what it lists as Active Recovery, would be the target for a rest day. I hadn't noticed this tool before.

Carbonfiberboy 

Since you have power, use that for a recovery ride. HR isn't as sensitive. Active recovery means you are moving your legs and, as it is said, little girls with handlebar streamers are passing you. That means max watts 50% of FTP or less, average watts between 30& and 50% of FTP. My practice has been to stay somewhere near but below the 50% number. You're just trying to stimulate blood circulation on your legs to reduce inflammation and promote healing. If it makes you tired at all, you're either going too hard or should just be resting. My max for a recovery ride is 45'. Over that and I start to feel it a little. Up to that point, my legs have continued to feel looser.

OldTryGuy

Didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express lately and definitely don't over analyze things so ----
.................Make Hay every day if that's what you want, OR NOT. Listen to your body, OR NOT. Take advice from those with experience, OR NOT.
In 2015 I had 64.5 years of proper diet and plenty of exercise and during my Pre-OP for PCa (Prostate Cancer) surgery my ECG HR after being wired up was 32bpm. Beat yourself up, OR NOT but make sure you're having fun because you don't always know what's around the next corner or behind door number 3.

Just posted in Did You Ride Today?

70th Birthday is in July
... No clue if I'll be around
70 miles yesterday I cycled by
... Don't care now if I'll be underground

Work at improving and reap the rewards because the inevitable slide is in everybody's future.

OldsCOOL

You can fix overtraining within a week. Your body will talk. Find what works for you. Do you like to train and reach goals? Undertraining will take longer to fix. Just ride.

eagletree

Since I enjoy the technical aspects of anything, a concept like this means recovery takes on the fun of a different type of achievement. I can see putting the wattage figure up to the first position on the display (so it's easy to see), and go entirely by that for a day or two when the fatigue training load figure rises too high. One could technically ride longer on a recovery day if you can do so and honor the numbers; the achievement becomes holding that number down. Of course you certainly wouldn't get as far, but it takes a different type of concentration and definition of the ride.

eagletree

Though I tend to have a lot of fun with metrics, I totally agree with you. Yesterday I was getting my haircut and the stylist asked me what I'd been doing and I told her how much I've been riding. She responded "Do you have a death wish or something?". I told her "No, this is about actually living for a change". But yes, I feel the same way, it's actually fatalistic about life which is logical, because we are stuck in a time limitation, so we get existential when we finally "get it", forget about tomorrow and go for every day as if it's the last. If we don't, the life we do live in caution, is pretty much lost time that can't be made up.

It's really sad that when you are younger, it's almost impossible to feel this mortality realization we come to when we hit about 50 something. If I could have had that awareness, I would have lived every day differently from the time I was 18. Possibly wouldn't be here now, but I would have made use of the minutes of life more effectively. I don't feel I'm wasting my life now that I'm headed out every day on the bike.

Hermes

Since you have power, you may want to try Training Peaks software and start using the performance manager in the software to monitor fatigue. It is a construct based upon knowing ones FTP but I have found it indicative of trends and certainly when the training stress balance is negative for some time, one would suspect fatigue levels are high.

There is the concept of rest weeks. Most of the coaches I have used over the years advocate taking a rest week every so often. Independent of what any HR measurement indicates or performance management system may calculate, a rest week allows all the systems to normalize and build. Of course, they drive us nuts but that is another matter.

The advice is to try different routines to see what works for you with the proviso that rest is where performance gains are made not on the bike.

eagletree

Is Training Peaks something you would use in addition to Strava or would it replace it? Strava does seem weak in what you can do with your data.

Hermes

Here is a link to the site that sells the software. https://www.trainingpeaks.com/wko5/ . Currently, I used Cycling Analytics that is similar to TP and in some ways better, client based and less expensive.

I have not analyzed Strava paid subscription versus TP. I think TP is more sophisticated. I bring it up because you indicated you were into data collection and analysis and TP offers that. My impression of Strave analytics is that it is more for the casual user.

I started training and racing with power in 2008, so I have 12 years of excellent data from coached programs and events. Looking back in time, it is very useful.

I use the free Strava for things like climb and lap times on certain routes I ride versus training stress. And I have a couple of friends with whom I share my rides on Strava.

eagletree

I use a Mac too. I'll check out Cycling Analytics. I had signed up with Strava because a friend uses it, but I'm not at all into the social networking aspect when it comes to data. The only thing I can do right now, is compare myself on segments, and the full data isn't presented in a way that you can compare what really went on, only how fast you went at given points. It's only oriented to the mph you did but not how you did it. I'd like to overlay all the graphs of the data fields when comparing a specific test ride against another. For example, then I could see cadence to cadence on micro sections and that sort of thing. I'll check it out.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, that's me all right, except that I've been doing that ever since I got out of the Army in '69. There's nothing I would have done differently. Any deviation might not have led to the fantastic luck I've had, just to be here doing what I do.

Listen to Hermes.

I train specifically for long distance events because when you get old, your power falls off but your endurance is the sum of everything you've ever done, minus some losses for age, but still, it's our strong point. I try to ride my strengths and train my weaknesses. My routine has been to do one hard ride a week, a really hard ride where I ride hard up every hill I come to, some of them as hard as I can, and then recover between them, not by riding easy, but by still keeping a strong pace. I use power for most training, but I go by HR on this ride. I know where my "blow up HR" is and keep it below that. I know how high I can run my HR and still recover between climbs. Etc. IOW, I monitor the damage, not the stressor. My PM upload will show mostly time in the upper and lower zones, not much in the middle. Going hard on the climbs is what makes you strong. My HR upload will show mostly time in the upper zones. I try for an hour of Z4 HR on that ride and I'll be destroyed by the end of it, whole point.

On my other training rides, I either do hill repeats using power, or steady-state endurance pace rides, monitoring my power meter and just trying to hold it steady. That's a lot harder than it sounds, both to do and on my legs. Holding the pace is what gives you endurance. I seldom do recovery rides and if I do it's 30' on my rollers. Mostly I just take a rest day.

I've I'm trying to TT a course, I ride it pretty much like my weekend training ride, except I go a little easier on the hills. On big group rides, I try to get out of the gate as soon as possible, go hard, and then wait for some folks to go by who look like they're doing it right and go with them.
RCC has a 30 mile group ride Saturday the 29th: Frosty Thirty.
Good people, won't be a huge mob. It's a good route covering many frequently ridden roads and paved bike trails in that area. It has the usual 50'/mile metric. If you're not sure of your group riding skills, hang on the back. It'll get all strung out. Tell Joe that his secretary David recommended it. I don't think I'll be able to make it. I assume you know how to load a course into your Garmin and follow it.

eagletree

There is a lot to digest there but I will go over it a few times. It sounds interesting since it's a structured training method. Is Z4 heart rate the same as Z4 as measured on the pedals? How did you derive your blow out heart rate? I try to stay below mid to high 150s for absolutely no good reason other than that is where I end up when I'm working hard. It appears that any ride where I peak at 149 and stay in the high 130s or low 140s for average, is a fairly light ride (stress test showed very strong heart and horrible lungs). That's the second vote for rollers on recovery rides. I'm looking into them.

On the ride, I am somewhat speechless. I live in a wasteland of bad roads, you live in road bike heaven over there. I followed the Frosty Thirty course at close or street view throughout, it flat out amazes me that such fantastic riding areas exist. It looks like you have to contend with about 5 intersections and the remainder of the ride is on low traffic neighborhood streets, bike lanes, or actual paved bike trails. What are called trails over here have roots, mud, fir cones/branches and lots of puddles. I'm wondering why I live way out when the city has all the resources for road riding. Sad thing is you ride right near my old office where I worked for 10 years, though I don't think biking resources were as extensive then (retired from that career in 2006). I will ponder your offer, that's pretty soon though and I'm not certain I feel confident to ride with people yet. If dead last is okay, where I could hide and enjoy it, it would be interesting. I have a Wahoo Roam so it can keep me on a course. Thanks for the offer, a lot of soul searching to do there by Saturday. I actually was thinking of getting my feet wet in Seattle that day just riding from the ferry down to Woodlawn Park (daughter lives just outside the gates). From Edmonds, it would be an orientation to moderately high traffic but laned roads. From Coleman dock it would be an orientation to Seattle biking trails.

Carbonfiberboy 

No, not really. HR is additive. You could be in Z4 HR never having been in that power zone.

To find out about blowing up, you have to blow up. Go up a long hill and keep increasing speed until all of a sudden you're going slower instead and will need to go slower for some time before you can resume in your previous gear. It's an awful feeling. You'll know it when you do it.

You can search for routes on RidewithGPS. There's a route there to get you from Edmonds to the Interurban Trail. Then search for that trail. It goes right past Woodlawn Park. I've ridden it - it tends to disappear, turn into streets, then seem to vanish. You have to watch your device closely. Better than streets though if you don't know them.

BengalCat

In general and more specifically on long or hard climbs or any decent of duration, easier is faster and, not to be redundant, easier both in the ride and recovering. Rather than going into detail I think if you consider my statement in the context of some very fine advice of many of the posts before mine, you will figure it out.

caloso

I use Strava for social reasons more than anything else. Occasionally route planning.

TP is for actual training data. For me the most important metric is consistent tracking of training stress score (TSS) and the fatigue numbers. I was already using TP long before Strava came out so I have years of data logged.

eagletree

I didn't try TP yet, but I did offload all my FIT files from the Roam and tried one on Cycling Analytics. It looks very nice, but I'd need to play with it with an account to tell if it has a training stress score and fatigue calculation. That sounds like the Fitness & Freshness calculation Strava has. I'm going to put a message into TP to see if there is a need now for Windows. As near as I can tell, there isn't since the files would come from the phone and display would be via browser.

Hermes

I was incorrect that Training Peaks WKO5 only works on PC. The new version works on MAC. I switched from TP to CA when I got my Mac and was waiting for TP to come out with a OSX version. I did not scroll down far enough in the link I posed. I may try the WKO5 since they offer a trial version and I have all my fit files on my Mac.

eagletree

Going to spend time trying to figure out the Training Stress Score mentioned from TP, and see if it's the same algorithm as the Fitness & Freshness tab of Strava, and see if the Cycling Analytics has an equivalent. It sounds like there is only one accepted equation. Problems come in that I don't have power on either the trainer or the MTB I used for the bad mud days. It's awfully expensive to outfit everything with power but it seems necessary to get really valid data. I will check into the TP WKO5. Thank you.

Hermes

This is the seminole work on the concept of FTP and the training stress score. https://www.amazon.com/Training-Raci...s%2C187&sr=8-2

Training software developers use the TSS formulation in TRPM. The concepts in the book are written with racing in mind but it is easy to adapt them to support any cycling goal. Once you understand the theory, you can apply it to your personal situation.

Over time, Allen and Coggen have improved the WKO software to make it more individual but in the end, it is still a construct that seems to work until it does not. We are capable of so much more than we think so one of my goals is to never let recorded or instantaneous data become a limiter.

eagletree

It turns out the Allen and Coggen algorithms were copied by Strava for the Fitness and Freshness tab calculation. One of the problems for me, is that my history is not sufficient for it to be accurate yet. Since I only got my Roam the second week in January, and power pedals in February, I need a more time to have the calculations represent my physical state. I do have Fitbit bike data from December, but the optical HRM is so inaccurate (up to 40% off during actual exercise) that the data would be meaningless.