grolby

Harlan, I'm not very knowledgeable about this stuff and don't coach myself, but here's my basic understanding.

What Friel calls "muscular endurance" and "anaerobic endurance" don't correspond exactly to the actual physiological energy systems that you're trying to overload in training, and they shade into one another. Which is a short way of saying 1. a hard effort focusing on one energy system will have an effect on the level of effort you can make focusing on a different energy system, and 2. this means the answer to your question is "it depends."

For example, the standard Coggan 20' power test includes a 5 minute effort before the 20 minute effort used to estimate FTP. The reason is partly that 20 minutes is short enough that your anaerobic energy system still contributes a meaningful amount to your power generated in 20 minutes, so the 5' interval depletes your anaerobic system a bit and hopefully reduces the skew on your FTP estimate.

This can work for and against you in your training depending on what you want to do. If you're after maximizing your anaerobic power, you probably shouldn't mix in too much threshold work in that workout session, or vice versa. On the other hand, if you want to work on your ability to recover from hard anaerobic efforts during a race, you probably should do workouts that mix the two. There are plenty out there - see Bill Black's Hour of Power for an example. A typical training plan will probably incorporate both of these types of workouts.

Finally, the bigger your base, the more likely you are to be able to handle and benefit from "kitchen sink" workouts. Long training rides incorporating a mix of endurance and high-intensity work seem to be a common component of professional training plans. Cause those folks have the training load and recovery time to do them. Most of us probably shouldn't attempt them except perhaps at the end of a block (see below).

You shouldn't construe this as advice on what to do or if there are rules to follow. But I think it's basically sound on the high-level physiological picture.

Also, like TKP, I'm willing to really overload on the last day of a block but otherwise hesitant. It's better to underdo it and still be able to do tomorrow's workout than to cook yourself and have to downgrade or even completely skip it.

TheKillerPenguin

This is what 40min of vo2 looks like, broken into warmup, workout, cooldown. There is a little z2 in the cooldown because out of nowhere it was like 45 and raining and I was trying to keep warm...but you get the idea. If I did z2 on top of this there is no way I could've done the rest of the work I did over the week. Note the IF for each lap.

Enthalpic

I didn't know TKP was Japanese.

TheKillerPenguin

Neither did I!

caloso

This was TTT work with teammates who are fitter than I am. So while they were probably doing FTP on the front, I was doing about 90-95% to stay on their wheel, then up to 150-175 for me to come around and then settle into 110% or so. It wasn't very scientific. We joke that we're training like it's 1975.

TMonk

2hrs this morning w 90' at ~84% (240w), NP prob a fair bit higher.

Just trying to ride up to my parents house before work to fetch my car, and drive it back to work. I started late and it was super (head) windy, so I was on the gas almost the whole time.

hubcyclist

1.5 hrs, 30 at z1/z2, 60 in a zwift race up the new mountain, held 240w for 20mins (~230 for 60mins), which is my best in a while

canuckbelle

Lactate pyramid today. 2hrs10min total.
(FTP = 250)

Warm up 15-20min@150-190w
1 x 10min@220-240w
Easy 10min
1 x 10min@220-240w
5min easy
1 x 5min@245-265w
2.5min easy
1 x 2min@270-290w
Easy 1min
1 x 1min MAX
Easy 1min
1 x 2min@270-290w
Easy 2.5min
1 x 5min@245-265w
Easy 5min
1 x 10min@220-240w
Easy 10-15min
1 x 20min@190-210w
Cool down

Rest tomorrow, openers Thursday, races Friday and Saturday.

grolby

Ok. 2 minute intervals are way more than twice as hard as 1 minute intervals.

PepeM

Second practice crit today, finished third. Smallish field, wild cross-wind across main straight. Right from the start strong rider just went to the front and hammered. I got on his wheel. After about 8 minutes or so we had gapped the field. He asked me for a pull and I obliged even though I knew I shouldn't have. One lap later as another rider was closing on us he dropped me. I grabbed the other rider's wheel and rode on it for the rest of the race. Should have taken second but I wimped out on the 'sprint,' meaning I didn't really sprint at all. Oh well. AP 249 NP 272

aaronmcd

Never done 2' intervals. I've done 4', and I've done 80".
4' is mentally tough, but 80" is just crazy pain for the final 50"
4' seems to be much more valuable. But I may have to add those shorter ones soon if I hope to race P1/2 next month.

hack

2x20s around 102%

grolby

I honestly think 2' might be even more valuable than 1'. Of course I say that as a guy whose 2' power is probably the best trick I have.

TheKillerPenguin

4hrs, 3x15 40/20 ~130%/~50%, then 1x15 @ 97% in the drops, flat ground racey ****.

Harlan

Appreciate the thoughtful responses gents. Definitely in the camp of understanding that it's better to be undertrained and overly enthusiastic than overtrained/hurt/burnt out. Will definitely have to consider what mixing will do to accomplish certain goals.

canuckbelle

I prefer 2' intervals to 1'. Sure, the first 30s go by really quickly, but the amount of pain for the rest of the interval in the 1' is much much higher than what's left in the 2', for me at least. I can take the suffering from the final 90s in a 2' interval better than the final 30s in a 1' interval.

mike868y

2hrs outside with 5*10'.
easy spin tomorrow, openers friday.

TheKillerPenguin

And Martin's result today...

PepeM

He beasted that finish.

Ygduf

it is in racing. I agree.

rideaz

Cool. Just did 8x2' intervals this morning. I like this validation

TheKillerPenguin

That was the hardest damn thing I've ever done. 10/10 would recommend to masochists.

grolby

Bleh. Meant to do 3x30s today. Lit it up a bit on the way to work (I was running late). Then it was unexpectedly cold and windy when I headed back out after getting home. Packed it in after one interval. So I sorta did 2x30' except separated by a seven hour rest interval. Call it 50% of a real workout, to be generous. Bah, I seem to always have one screw-up in the first week of a block. At least it wasn't the 2' intervals yesterday. Back on the horse tomorrow.

aaronmcd

2:40 on the way to work. Didn't have time to add to my commute, so attacked most of the climbs. I had forgotten about that weird, weak-legged, muscle-melting feeling at the end of a hard anaerobic effort; like the legs are detached but the nerves are still firing and the lungs are annoyingly slow at doing their job.

cb3

Tuesday: Weeknight Crits - fun breakaway in an avg. 25 mph wind with big gusts.
Wednesday: Hour on TR on the TT bike to change things up a bit 0 only 50 TSS but worked on staying down in the bars which is half the battle on a new TT bike.. then did weights after.

About to be off the bike for 9 days due to travel - it's killin me!