CrimsonEclipse

He's not even using the updated picture to whine about me.

I expect some common courtesy when throwing a temper tantrum.

Fentuz

As I mentioned before, my smooth hound was done on a budget road/gravel/CX type bike. bear in road config, it is 7.2kg and I purposely went for 9speed because cheap Sora short cage + XT cassette 11-34 because lighter than ultegra but after 1 year and 5000k, the 2 smallest cogs are dead.
One of the other big reasons I m keeping it with 9s is the running cost of the derailleurs; despite cleaning and maintaining the bike properly, I go through a derailleur once a year because UK roads are messy/salty etc. a 9s compatible derailleur is £15 to 17... going to Tiagra or 105 or Red rim brake would be nice but maintenance cost would be much higher.

on 20" wheels, I run Sora 9s short cage, Altus M310 with good result up to 11-40 sunrace cassette. Currently, I run the following:
smooth hound road -> 9s sora shifters with sora short cage derailleur and XT 11-34 cassette + 56T Miche crono chainriring
smooth hound CX -> 9s sora shifters with sora short cage derailleur and ultegra 11-25 cassette + 42T Force chainriring
PlanetX giovanissimi -> 9s microshift shifters with sora short cage derailleur and XT 11-34 cassette + 42T chainriring
Frog 52 -> 9s acera shifters with M310 derailleur and sunrace 11-40 cassette + 32T chainriring

Note that I used to run the Smooth hound as a gravel with sora shifter, sora short cage derailleur, sunrace 11-40 cassette and 42T chainring (for 20% offroad climbs)

And because I could
Dahon helios -> 10 ZEE shifter with Zee derailleur and 11-34 tiaga cassette.

Ron Damon

Yeah. On a 20" wheel there's nothing too difficult or complicated up to an 11-46T cogset with a medium cage GS RD provided the tires are not ultra thin and you finesse the chain length. Greater than 46T is where you go into the questionable, risible results, as has been amply and sadly demonstrated on this channel. You'll know the thread.

I myself have been trying to push this envelope since 2016 when the now common wide range cogsets were either unavailable or way too expensive. Here's me with 11-36T and Zee as late as eight years ago



In 2018 I made the jump to 11-42T on 20" and to 11-36T on 16" (ISO305) so I've been at this game a while. I guffaw when Johnny-come-latelys tell me what is and what is not possible.

Fentuz

Out of interest, how did you deal with the chainline on your dash? On my smooth hound, I run GXP type cup (M30 actually) with praxis carbon crankset measuring the same as my force crankset. It uses a Sram spider for the+6mm offset. I run it 1X and because I tend to use the smaller side of the cassette, the chainring is on the outside so it "cross chains" when on gear1 (largest) which is OK as I rarely use it (or don't really are). If I was to fit the chainring on inside, it would "crosschain" on the smallest cog which I believe would be worse.

If I run a 2X system, it would not be an issue. with a 1X direct mount +6offset, it would be fine but, they don't exist over 50T.

Ron Damon

Hmmm...I don't know what to tell you. I never had any chainline problems or difficulties with the Dash. The crankset was Litepro, now called Litepro Plus, which was (is, really, since it's the crankset, arms and ring, currently in my FSIR) for 73mm BB so there were two 2.5mm spacers on both sides of the Shimano HT2 BB. The chainring was mounted on the outside of the arm spider, but it was/is offset inwards. And that was that. No issues.

cat0020

Why don't you just post a picture of your 16" mini velo with chain & rear derailleur in the 42T or 46T cog?
That would solve most if not all discussion about clearance issues?

Fentuz

To be fair he's done it with his Gust 16"

cat0020

Chain is not in the largest cog..

splithub

Wow, i thought you refuse to look up pics in this forum, actually you don't know how... Don't forget - inale... then exhale.. You can do it, you're a big boy!

cat0020

If you know the thread, why didn't you just post the url?
make a reference, you need to provide the source, otherwise you're just full of BS.

BTW, picture you provided is not the same mini velo,
not the same rear cog,
only 9 speed,
not the same tire..
clearance may vary,

or did you not know the differences?
Yeah . Don't forget - inale... then exhale.. You can do it, you're a big boy!

CrimsonEclipse

Fentuz

Well, if you were to read shimano/sram instructions regarding chain length for cassette above 30T, you will find that once set properly, the derailleur cage goes over the cam point (and cam over) when on the largest cassette cog.
So when set properly, the lower point of the pulley is not on the largest cog (gear 1) but often on gear 3. and it is like that on my 5 bikes.

And it was demonstrated it in other posts:
https://www.bikeforums.net/22714801-post17.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/23138457-post31.html

Fentuz

What are you talking about, the 2 16" FHON linked pictures have a ZEE groupset which is 10 speed and on the last pic you can count 10cogs, admittedly, the gear 10 is small but the tooth can be seen in the Quick release frame location

cat0020

Tire is printed 20x1.75, 47-406... that is a 20 in wheel..

If you reference shimano/sram, you should post a link of the source.
No source, you're just full of BS.

if picture shown 30T is not 46T as claimed.

You have them setup on 5 different bikes, why don't you post pictures your bike in the largest cog and how much clearance they each have against rear tire.
Are all five of your bikes 16" wheel sized?

I count 9 cogs, even with the small cog.

Fentuz

So this thread started as a mini velo subject on 20" which then moved to 16".
Ron has published various pictures of his 16" folders with with ZEE groupset with are 10speed and he even said that he uses a deore 10s cassette which is clearly showed on his pictures including the following one fitted with a kenda (45-305) or (16x1.75)

Note that people reposted pictures for your benefit. If you cannot see that, we cannot do much for you.

Then you accuse people (inc myself) to be full of BS but if you did a quick search you would get your info... parktool, sram, shimano, all the same
https://si.shimano.com/en/dm/MARD001...e_chain_length
https://www.parktool.com/en-int/blog...-length-sizing
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/do...and-chains.pdf

The picture from CrimsonEclipse are of his dahon mariner fitted with a 50T cassette and while it is not a 16", the point of these was to show you the your demand for clearance when on the largest cog is pointless as I said and pictures demonstrated, the lowest point of the bottom pulley (or the smallest ground clearance) is not on the largest cog. The wheel size is irrelevant as it is a product of the derailleur mechanism which the youtube video above display pretty well.
All my bikes 5 bikes (4 20" and 1 700c) display the same thing: the lowest point of the bottom pulley is not achieved on the largest cassette cog/gear 1

All in all, people made it easy for you and when you are not served with a silver spoon, you accuse people of ignorance and BS when really the issue is that you cannot be bother to search by yourself...

cat0020

As if thread started can not take another related direction?

I didn't start the discussion of 20" vs 16", but Ron certainly posted pictures (without chain on his 16", 10 speed mini velo)

Picture you posted do not show the specific 46T dog on 16" wheel and compact frame



Whilst the document show the range of cassette and applications, but none of them specify application for 16" wheel compact frame as Ron Damon posted in his picture below:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_20240104_155417_85bc1b991168ec1319467d7a90feb113233b8695.jpg

If it's not a 16" fitted with a 50T cassette, that doesn't apply to Ron's picture, don't you agree?

Then show pictures of your 5 bikes and stop referencing others.

All in all, you cannot provide evidence of your claim that 46T would work with 16" wheel on a compact frame.
Without specific evidence, that is BS.
You keep saying that people made it easy for me, but unable to be accurate to the discussion of 16" wheel & 46T rear cog specific, is so difficult to understand?
All we need to settle the discussion is for Ron to post a picture of his 16" mini velo with chain on the 10-speed 46T rear cog and see if the chain clears the rear tire as pictured prior without chain.