CliffordK

Tubeless Standards, see Post #14

SEAL THE DEAL

To The Point - UST Rims and Tires

It sounds like it is time for Tubeless tire and rim manufacturers to sit down around a big table and start hashing out a universal standard.

We're now nearly 20 years into this tubeless thing, and patents will begin to expire soon.

UST seems to be pretty specific about the locking mechanism.

The WTB ST i25 tubeless ready rims (not STP) seem to indicate a UST compatible design.

WTB ST Rims

I can't find any notes on Compass of the actual standards they are attempting to follow.

I bought a pair of once-mounted Bon Jon Pass tires. It is hard to tell for sure, but it appears as if they have a fairly square bead, so they may well be UST compliant, although in theory true UST shouldn't require sealant.

I have a pair of Schwalbe One Pro tires. The bead seems much rounder, so I'm thinking Stans BST.

Anyway, if Compass is, in fact, using UST or similar, then it should have been fine, as long as the beads were properly seated. But, they should take the next step and certify their tires.

Oneder

What if you had died from the blowout, then they would owe your family millions.

No big surprise they refuse to pay for rims, no one is going to and no one is liable unless negligence is proven in court. If someone is to blame why didn't your bike store notice the tire has an obvious defect?

AlmostTrick

What is a skinnystripper? I'm guessing you're not talking about a girl at the club.

rpthomas

I have to be fair and update that later today Compass contacted me through email and has agreed to pay for the damage. The LBS owner told me they talked to him and then agreed to pay. Seems fair to me and surprised me.

athrowawaynic

Good to hear, but still...

Is the ride quality worth it?

TimothyH

That is very surprising and speaks well of the company.

I have been a critic of Jan Heine/Compass but have to give credit where it is due.

Kudos as well to the LBS who advocated on your behalf. Sounds like you have a good shop behind you.

noglider 

That's a good story. I had a good image of the company in my mind, and this restored it. I enjoy Jan Heine's blog, and I pay for a subscription to Bicycle Quarterly. I haven't bought any of his products, though.

Clem von Jones

I've had some DIY experience running tubeless sometimes with non-approved and improvised products and although I love tubeless and will always use it I think any new tubeless setup should be considered sketchy until it's been tested and inspected carefully especially if it was done by someone else. There are so many variables involved like the elasticity of the tire bead, leaky valve seals, shape of the rim, the type of sealant and whether there's some dry sealant at the edges. I'm glad it wasn't your front tire and that Compass came thru eventually. I think the manufacturer is reputable and makes quality products. I wouldn't want Panaracer to quit making tubeless-compatible tires for us so it behoves us to be cautious with new tires.

ThermionicScott 

This. The tire manufacturer can try to make their tires with careful design and tight QC, but they don't have control over which rims, tape, sealant, etc it gets installed with.
@rpthomas, do you know if the shop tried airing your tires up to the max rating to test the fit before you got them?

chas58

For gosh sake, don't google it!!! (or its original name : fattystripper).

I created a thread to explain it:
https://www.bikeforums.net/cyclocros...l#post20334985

Darth Lefty 

AlmostTrick

Right? Especially since I'm at work!

Thanks! I will check it out.

Tubeless seems like more trouble than it's worth. Especially considering how nice quality tires and tubes ride. Plus, no messy sealants.

CliffordK

Not exactly. As mentioned by @TimothyH, and a few notes in my previous post #30

There are a couple of different rim and bead standards. Specifically UST (square bead) and BST (Stans round bead).

If one creates spec standards on rim design, and the rims adhere to the specs, and the tire manufacturers make their tires to work with those specs, then there is no longer a huge compatibility issue.

Unfortunately, possibly for patent. trademark, or other reasons, very few manufacturers are adhering to the specs. So, it becomes a free-for-all, and "tubeless ready" may not, in fact, be "tubeless compatible".

While the OP's rims may, in fact, be UST compatible, Compass doesn't specifically list their tires as being UST compatible.

CliffordK

OH,

Reminds me of doing support for engineers at my previous job.

An Engineer came to me and told me her boss wanted her to look up pool heaters and gave her a link that was being blocked by the company's net nanny.

It turns out the Engineer forgot a very important dash in the website name.

www.hotbox.com link blocked by the work net nanny.
www.hot-box.com Intended link for pool heaters.

CliffordK

I haven't quite gotten tubeless rolling yet, but will probably go that way in the next couple of months.

I have a mini tour heading through the desert and goathead territory, off the beaten path, and thus where cars haven't blown everything off the road.

While I may be able to use tubes, tire liners, sealants, and etc, the tubeless just seems to make sense. At least before heading off down the road.

AlmostTrick

Well that certainly could get somebody looking for hot water into some hot water!

ThermionicScott 

Are BST and UST necessarily compatible with each other? One would hope that these standards are attempting to be backward-compatible with the common BSDs at least.

I'll expect the whole industry to adopt one standard around the same time the country goes to single-payer healthcare.

TimothyH

Guitar Ted suspects that some tire manufacturers are hesitant to claim their tire is one standard or the other as it will limit sales.

These are probably splitting the difference between the UST and BST specs and trying to make tires which work with either type of rim.

Threads like this are the result.

CliffordK

Nope,

As far as I can tell, they may work together, somewhat like putting duct tape on a vintage rim and popping on a tubeless tire may work, but there is no guarantee it will stay in place.

For safety's sake (and to prevent issues like this blowoff), one would expect companies to develop and adhere to standards.

It would be like getting Ford and Chevy tubeless rims, and Firestone and Michelin tubeless tires, and not quite knowing if one would work with the other. Yes, I know there are a plethora of tire sizes, but with few exceptions, the rim interface and bead lock are pretty universal.

The bicycle industry has too many standards.... or non-standards. But, say 1 1/8" stems and 31.8mm handlebars are pretty universal now. Yep, there are some older standards, but the 1 1/8 & 31.8 are taking over. Hopefully in the future there will be less need to worry about 25.6, 26.0, or 26.4 bars. Or 22.2 or 22.0 or 21.15 quills

noglider 

Engineers' joke: the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!

Kapusta

chas58

Yeah, I have too many bikes to run them all tubless. Its pretty much required for anything I'm going to run at low pressure on a rough surface - to prevent pinch flats. Tires these days are so good, it is rare I get an actual puncture on a good tire.


Yeah back in the early days of the net, a co-worker went to the white house web site. But he typed in whitehouse.com. He wasn't expecting what came up. Now that site is blocked at work. It should be whitehouse.gov

and my implementation of standards is better than yours - I have the customization to prove it!

ThermionicScott 

Discussions about standards aside, it seems like one should be able to determine whether a combination of parts in hand will work without excessive danger.

A somewhat snug fit of the tire bead is desired here, if you are able to push a deflated but still mounted tire bead off the bead seat and into the well without any resistance, it's probably not tight enough for tubeless, right? So you could install the recommended amount of rim tape (usually two layers) to the bare rim, install the tire with a regular tube, and inflate/deflate. Test pushing the tire bead away from the edge of the rim, and if it's too loosey-goosey, add another layer of rim tape as recommended by Jan/Compass. Once you're satisfied with the fit of the bead you can try setting it up tubeless. Put in the eye protection and earplugs, and take the pressure up to the manufacturer's recommended max. Assuming that works, go a little beyond, looking for evidence that the tire is creeping. Sort of like finding out how far you can push a set of old straight-sided rims, really.

This is all with the caveat that I haven't actually played around with tubeless, myself. Not against it, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

noglider 

DrIsotope

I had a 700x35 Panaracer Gravelking SK do the exact same thing, only I was doing about 20mph and my hoop ended up costing me about $90 to replace. Panaracer replaced the tire no questions asked, and I never even thought to bother them about the rim-- these are the costs of cycling. Lost a 700x35 Hutchinson Overide to a pair of drywall screws just a few months later. These things happen. I've had four tire failures (all different brands, no less) just this year.

I have probably around 1,000 miles on tubeless Gravelkings since-- just because one tire was defective doesn't mean they'll all be. I wouldn't boycott Compass because they initially didn't want to pay for the damaged rim. I wouldn't buy from them in the first place, because an $82 tire is just madness. The tires on my car didn't cost $82 each, and they're 245mm wide and last 30,000 miles.