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Why is ultralight touring so unpopular?

Old 11-29-15, 08:53 AM
  #676  
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Why is ultralight touring so unpopular?

Without defining where you are riding, at what time of year, and for how long, comparing different loads is pretty meaningless.

UL touring in pleasant summer weather in the USA is somewhat different than a multi-year 4-season round the world tour, neh?

Personally I love riding however light or heavy my load is. I've never toured with as much gear as Göran Kropp did on his way from Sweden to Everest, but I'm sure I'd enjoy that too!
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Old 11-29-15, 08:57 AM
  #677  
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Originally Posted by mdilthey
Exactly. I'd add to that that going UL also usually comes with a lot of planning. If you're carrying less, you scrutinize every detail because you have less room for error.
I think that is very true. I have gone over my list hundreds (thousands?) of times and given it huge amounts of thought with actual longish trips in between iterations. As a result I feel that while I have less stuff, I am more sure of having the right stuff than most folks. Then there is the ease of finding an item among your gear when you are carrying only very limited number of items.

Originally Posted by Buffalo Buff
For me its just about making the ride more fun. When I take my bike out for a quick pleasure ride witu no luggage on it, I love how it accelerates and handles. Packing lighter makes it feel closer to that.
To me that is a huge reward. I always wonder at how folks can ask why anyone would want to go lighter. I guess that not everyone has the same appreciation for that more unladen ride. Folks can and should ride and carry what they enjoy though, whether that is UL, UH, or something in between.

There is also the pleasure of a simpler routine with the minimum of possessions and therefore choices. Again, if folks don't share that aesthetic, that is fine, but I am surprised that some don't get why someone else might.
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Old 11-29-15, 09:08 AM
  #678  
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Originally Posted by imi
People all over the world make open fires every day, to cook, for warmth, to sit around and enjoy.
Originally Posted by imi
My point was that making a fire in the wild does not per definition have to be irresponsible, inconsiderate and possibly dangerous...
Of course it can be, duh, which is why it is even illegal in many places or at certain times of the year... And totally legal in other places if done in a safe and responsible way.
I have real trouble thinking up places where making wild campfires would be a good idea if it's not a dedicated fireplace. I'm thinking it from the view of, what if everyone were doing it. It doesn't take that much making fires to completely ravage a small area (like a popular campsite). And that's with people who know how to make fires, with noobs you'll get some serious environmental damage such as cutting down saplings and stripping trees of their bark. The good thing about the woodgas stove is that it works with really small sticks, pellets you can buy if the local environment is fragile, and even dry grass (you can scavenge that from cut grass fields) it burns so efficiently that it doesn't really contribute to air pollution in terms of small particles, and most importantly, leaves no trace.

I live in a nation which is the pinnacle of personal freedoms in terms of traversing in nature, but even here making a fire without the landowners explicit agreement is forbidden, even in the winter. Making fires is messy, smelly, polluting and inconsiderate towards the people who might come across the fire site afterwards or during when it's burning.

Sure, people use fires to cook etc. but for example in Africa in many areas people are encouraged to use stoves which boost efficiency, lower pollution and lessen fuel use, just because doing anything on an open fire is just a really inefficient.
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Old 11-29-15, 09:09 AM
  #679  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
I guess that not everyone has the same appreciation for that more unladen ride.
I stopped and thought about this, and realised you are absolutely right.

I commute every day unladen, and never - not once - have I ever thought on tour that the ride was less enjoyable, or that I appreciate it less.

Given the choice I would not prefer to have my gear transported by someone else, be it a SAG wagon or my butler riding beside me, in order to appreciate an unladen ride... I love hauling my gear myself.

Last edited by imi; 11-29-15 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 11-29-15, 09:28 AM
  #680  
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Originally Posted by imi
Given the choice I would not prefer to have my gear transported by someone else, be it a SAG wagon or my butler riding beside me, in order to appreciate an unladen ride... I love hauling my gear myself.
I wouldn't want my gear transported for me either. A motor vehicle along would pretty much ruin the experience for me. I too love hauling my gear myself, I just prefer that there isn't any more of it than necessary to camp and cook in reasonable comfort. I also find that taking a sportier bike is a plus and I don't consider that a good idea with heavier loads.

That said I do like to minimize what I carry, while maintaining the ability to camp, cook, and generally be pretty self sufficient. Sagged tours or credit card tours are both less appealing to me. A simple lifestyle on tour with minimal possessions along is very pleasant to me.
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Old 11-29-15, 09:35 AM
  #681  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
I live in a nation which is the pinnacle of personal freedoms in terms of traversing in nature
Where would that be?

Originally Posted by elcruxio
I have real trouble thinking up places where making wild campfires would be a good idea if it's not a dedicated fireplace.
Here in Sweden for example the right of Freedom to Roam "Allemansrätten" specifically allows fires in the wild (with safety obligations of course). If there is unusual risk of fire hazards, this is announced on TV weather reports.

It is very common to see people grilling over an open fire by the side of a lake for example.
Children are taught these rights - and obligations - both in theory, and in practice.

Idiots with cigarettes in the forest scare me more than responsible people building fires in the wild.

Bonfires on beaches are another example I can think of where there is no fire hazard - and where an incoming tide washes away any trace.
I've lived in the desert with Bedouins who daily build a fire to cook, bake pita bread, and commune around in the evening wherever they happen to make camp. Seems like the most natural thing in the world to me.

Last edited by imi; 11-29-15 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 11-29-15, 09:42 AM
  #682  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
... I do like to minimize what I carry, while maintaining the ability to camp, cook, and generally be pretty self sufficient. Sagged tours or credit card tours are both less appealing to me. A simple lifestyle on tour with minimal possessions along is very pleasant to me.
staehpj1: This mirrors exactly my touring "philosophy", couldn't have put it better myself...
My only extra is a guitar, but hey, that just inspires me to keep the weight down even more everywhere else

Last edited by imi; 11-29-15 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 11-29-15, 12:06 PM
  #683  
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Originally Posted by imi
Where would that be?


Here in Sweden for example the right of Freedom to Roam "Allemansrätten" specifically allows fires in the wild (with safety obligations of course). If there is unusual risk of fire hazards, this is announced on TV weather reports.

It is very common to see people grilling over an open fire by the side of a lake for example.
Children are taught these rights - and obligations - both in theory, and in practice.

Idiots with cigarettes in the forest scare me more than responsible people building fires in the wild.

Bonfires on beaches are another example I can think of where there is no fire hazard - and where an incoming tide washes away any trace.
I've lived in the desert with Bedouins who daily build a fire to cook, bake pita bread, and commune around in the evening wherever they happen to make camp. Seems like the most natural thing in the world to me.
Finland.

We frown upon people making wild campfires anywhere where it's not specifically allowed. Making a fire requires the permission of the land owner. People might even bring their own firewood and fire base if they plan on making a fire next to a lake etc.

Also, I'm sure dumping ashes into water bodies is a really good idea with the lye and other possible substances which may increase the overgrowing of lakes and the baltic sea as well as cyanobacteria, and just generally dumping stuff into the ocean is just the best thing ever. Why not dump sewage and all that while we're at it. This is sarcasm by the way.

The beduins might use open fires, but they also don't know any better, and they don't actually have the burden of high population density. Granted, lapland doesn't either, but depending on the spot you're at at a certain given time, the temporary population density might rise quite high due to hikers and rush seasons. Imagine hundreds of people just putting fires everywhere all the time. A nice picture that.
We northeners on the other hand do know better, and we know for example, that areas with high levels of single family homes have worse air quality than the inner city areas, because people burn wood in fireplaces, and naturally the chimneys have no proper filtration systems. Small particles are a pain the lower regions.
Currently I think the requlation is that if one is to use wood or biomatter for sole heating, new houses need meet very stringent filtration requirements since burning wood is just that bad for you.
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Old 11-29-15, 12:33 PM
  #684  
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Elcruxio: I wonder, have you calculated - or even pondered - your own personal lifestyle and energy needs and their effect on the environment? Then compared it to a nomadic Bedouin's?

btw, "they don't know any better..." Do you realise how that comes across?

Last edited by imi; 11-29-15 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 11-29-15, 12:51 PM
  #685  
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Originally Posted by imi
Elcruxio: I wonder, have you calculated - or even pondered - your own personal lifestyle and energy needs and their effect on the environment? Then compared it to a nomadic Bedouin's?
Not really compareable. It gets cold in the north. But considering my most energy expensive posession is my bicycle, I wager my carbon footprint is tiny. Being poor helps to curb consumption as well
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Old 11-29-15, 12:53 PM
  #686  
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Why is ultralight touring so unpopular?

Just edited my previous post
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Old 11-29-15, 01:13 PM
  #687  
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Originally Posted by imi
btw, "they don't know any better..." Do you realise how that comes across?
I know where you're going with this and the remark is not racist even if you try to really hard to make it so. This may need to go to some off topic forum if we're to continue this further, but criticizing cultures or rather parts of cultures is not racism, discriminating people due them beloning to a culture is racism. There is a massive difference which is sadly quite often forgotten.

Let's return to earlier example of promoting more efficient stoves in Africa instead of people using open fires for cooking. The people who adopt the stove did not know any better before they were offered the technology. It's the same thing. Or they did know, but refuse to adopt the more efficient technology (although, I've understood people are pretty hyped about the stoves since they use a lot less fuel = less work)

If you can't criticize a culture or its parts you can't really develop it either.
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Old 11-29-15, 01:18 PM
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Why is ultralight touring so unpopular?

Yes, let's drop this. It's a great thread and who knows where it may go next!

Back on topic:

UL tourers are weak wimps with underdeveloped leg muscles!

There! It had to be said eventually!


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Old 11-29-15, 01:47 PM
  #689  
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Originally Posted by imi
Without defining where you are riding, at what time of year, and for how long, comparing different loads is pretty meaningless.

UL touring in pleasant summer weather in the USA is somewhat different than a multi-year 4-season round the world tour, no?
Very true. Preparing for warm weather means more layers / heavier sleeping bag. Touring a less developed country can mean a more robust repair kit, etc.
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Old 11-29-15, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Buffalo Buff
Very true. Preparing for warm weather means more layers / heavier sleeping bag. Touring a less developed country can mean a more robust repair kit, etc.
Yes location and season do make a difference, but maybe not so much as it would seem for two reasons.

First... I figure that even on a US summer tour I am typically in mountains high enough for some portion of the trip that I have to be prepared for the occasional below freezing night or even a bit of snow. So my lightest setup is OK for the occasional night in the teens F or a little bit of snow here or there.

Second... I am not inclined to tour in actual full on winter weather. Other trips make more sense for that kind of weather, XC skiing, snowshoeing, and hiking are all more likely for me at those times. I just don't see multi day snowstorms or 0 F temperatures to be suitable for a bike tour.

I guess those factors may not all be the same for everyone. For example I could see someone doing a fat bike snow tour and I guess there are lots of tours in summer where there isn't a chance of any cold weather so folks may not always pack for a cold night.
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Old 11-29-15, 05:10 PM
  #691  
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Why is ultralight touring so unpopular?

Honest question: Has anyone here done, or know of anyone who has done (or is on) a round the world self sufficient tour without at least two large panniers or a trailer?

Fair to say that's fairly indicative of the difference between Ultralight and the rest, isn't it?

I'll see what I can find on CGOAB, as I am genuinely interested.

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Old 11-29-15, 05:12 PM
  #692  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
Yes location and season do make a difference, but maybe not so much as it would seem for two reasons.

First... I figure that even on a US summer tour I am typically in mountains high enough for some portion of the trip that I have to be prepared for the occasional below freezing night or even a bit of snow. So my lightest setup is OK for the occasional night in the teens F or a little bit of snow here or there.

I guess those factors may not all be the same for everyone. For example I could see someone doing a fat bike snow tour and I guess there are lots of tours in summer where there isn't a chance of any cold weather so folks may not always pack for a cold night.
It's funny because my first tours were the same. Mixture of shorts & tshirt nights in the carolinas, with some below freezing nights up in elevation in VA/WV. did a tour last September along the southern coast of the US and brought the same stuff I'd bring for WV. Cold weather gloves, sleeping bag, long sleeve base layer, cycling pants, long socks etc. Mailed all that crap back home when I realized it wouldn't be dropping below 80 the first few nights of my trip

That warm weather setup was down to about 10lbs. I can't go quite that light when preparing for below freezing nights. I'm more around 14, 15 lbs at that point. One nice thing about cool weather camping is I can leave the tent and bugnet and just use a hammock + sleeping bag.
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Old 11-29-15, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by imi
Honest question: Has anyone here done, or know of anyone who has done (or is on) a round the world self sufficient tour without at least two large panniers or a trailer?
No I don't know of any. Then again I have not paid very much attention to the RTW tours folks have done because they don't interest me. I am ready to go home after a few months on the road.

Originally Posted by imi
Fair to say that's fairly indicative of the difference between Ultralight and the rest, isn't it?
Not sure what you are saying/asking here. Care to clarify?
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Old 11-29-15, 05:45 PM
  #694  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
No I don't know of any. Then again I have not paid very much attention to the RTW tours folks have done because they don't interest me. I am ready to go home after a few months on the road.


Not sure what you are saying/asking here. Care to clarify?
No reason to bring the trailer and 5 gallons of water everywhere on a round the world tour. Bring it when you need it. then ship it forward. It's not rocket science.
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Old 11-29-15, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
Originally Posted by imi
Fair to say that's fairly indicative of the difference between Ultralight and the rest, isn't it?
Not sure what you are saying/asking here. Care to clarify?
Sure, I'll try... It seems that those who go UL choose alternatives to racks, panniers, or trailers. Either stuff bags strapped on, saddle bags, or frame bags, because it's lighter and they don't need the volume of large panniers or a trailer.

Hence my dividing line between UL and L or heavier: At least two large panniers (probably on a rack) or a trailer.

Hope that makes sense? My question was if that is a reasonable dividing line at least in order to continue a discussion?

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Old 11-29-15, 06:08 PM
  #696  
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
No reason to bring the trailer and 5 gallons of water everywhere on a round the world tour. Bring it when you need it. then ship it forward. It's not rocket science.
No it's not rocket science. I think the logistics of doing that could be HARDER than rocket science!
Just thinking about the hassle you could get into with customs in some countries brings me out in a cold sweat!
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Old 11-29-15, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by imi
Honest question: Has anyone here done, or know of anyone who has done (or is on) a round the world self sufficient tour without at least two large panniers or a trailer?
.
Mike hall currently holds the record for fastest self supported tour around the world. He did it on this
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Old 11-29-15, 06:22 PM
  #698  
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Why is ultralight touring so unpopular?

Fantastic! Thanks psy! Exactly what I was looking for!

edit: here's the low-down on his gear:
https://road.cc/content/news/59716-interview-round-world-record-holder-mike-hall-talks-round-world-record-kit

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Old 11-29-15, 06:42 PM
  #699  
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how about we stop the finger pointing about who is wrong and who is more wrong. how about some gear lists that show where you are comfortable and the line where you cross into uncomfortable. Carrying too much stuff during the day counts as uncomfortable. A shower curtain at night instead of a tent counts as uncomfortable.
So where is your line?

May the lightness be upon you!
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Old 11-29-15, 06:51 PM
  #700  
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Originally Posted by imi
No it's not rocket science. I think the logistics of doing that could be HARDER than rocket science!
Just thinking about the hassle you could get into with customs in some countries brings me out in a cold sweat!
You are absolutely correct.

Shipping a small box forward on a trip across the U.S.caused enough headaches, and we knew the language, the postal system, and most importantly our intended route.
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