Ryan_M

So I recently got into MTB, and OMFG I love it!!! I had a hybridish build that never got used so I made it more mountain bikey to test the waters (see pic). It was a success and want to build a full suspension bike. I ride in southern Ontario where the trails are tight and twisty, tree roots to make mangroves blush, no major ups or downs but some nasty stuff due to erosion - there might be an unexpected drop where there wasn't one last week. I believe I need a trail bike and has been confirmed talking to peeps on another format.

Looking to make a Stumpjumper like bike, I like my chinese carbon. Suspension parts are a major part of the budget, but I need to pick them somewhat blindly only going off of reviews and opinions. I feel im pretty set on a Fox Factory 34 Grip2 140mm fork, but then theres the 36, and on and on. And then what to get for the rear shock? The Float DPS? But then 3 position or lockout variety?

I'd like to say I absolutely HATE buyers remorse but I soo much prefer to buy the $1000 part even if the $600 part is good enough. It burns my a$$ if I settle on the $600 part then wish I got the $1000 part every. single, time. I. ride. that. bike! But $2000 is way past the point of diminishing returns lol. Guidance would be appreciated!!!

CrimsonEclipse

I prefer the "EENIE-MEANIE-MINEY-MO" technique

Many people are skipping the full suspension just for said reasons.

Too much money, too much risks.

Last time I asked a bike shop on advice for a full suspension, they suggested a $7500 model.

I quit asking buying advice at bike shops.

staehpj1

You can get similar advice here. FWIW I spent $2500 and definitely can see where I could have benefitted from spending a few $k more. I don't have buyers remorse though. At my age I am not racing (haven't in decades) and don't need top of the line stuff. I could upgrade a bit at a time, but it isn't a bad bike for trail riding as is.

Oh, and fwiw I am a daily trail rider.

Edit to add:
I was thinking more about this while out on my morning ride. I am probably actually faster on my hard tail for the terrain I ride which sounds similar to yours. I do enjoy the full suspension bike and ride it most of the time, but really the ideal bike for it may be closer to what you already have. If I were to really build what I thought would get me over this terrain the fastest I'd build up a light hard tail with a real nice fork good wheels and fairly fat tires.

veganbikes

Such poor advice. People aren't skipping full suspension because there is choice out there in suspension parts and don't just say "Last time I asked a bike shop on advice for a full suspension, they suggested a $7500 model." because that is useless without full context and a response from the shop. If you come in asking for a whole bunch of stuff don't be surprised when they suggest the right thing for you even if it might cost money.

Generally people in shops do that for a living so if they are giving out advice it is usually pretty good and they are usually riders themselves. There are certainly occasions where someone can give bad advice and also plenty of occasions where a customer has in their mind a high end bike at wally mart pricing which does not compute and gets mad because someone didn't give them the wally-mart price. People expect magically because we charge say $7500 for a bike we are making a ton of money and driving home on our yachts throwing money at each other when we are just scraping by on that sale, bikes are low margins for a shop.

Regardless though if you are looking for good suspension figure out your intended riding and how much travel you need and what sort of measurements you need and then look at the options. If I were choosing full suspension parts I would probably go Fox but I really love my Fox 36 and I love Kashima coating it looks good and performs well but I would also be happy with a RockShox set up or Cane Creek makes some nice stuff as well. Stick with stuff that is of known quantity and quality so you can get parts down the road and don't be scared to spend money. Ask people who ride regularly and especially at MTB specific shops as they probably ride quite often and can give actually good advice vs. some rando who may not know much about full suspension.

prj71

Who are these people? What said reasons? And what risks? Your post makes zero sense.

To the OP...Anything from Fox or Rockshox in the $500+ category will be a good product. The higher the price the better the suspension will perform and it will have more tuning features.

I have a Fox36 Factory with grip2...It came on the bike I bought and is probably overkill for the type of riding I do and could easily be just fine with a Fox 34 Factory grip2.

Kapusta

If you are looking for a suspension setup that you won’t second guess down the road, I would not start off with a knock off China FS frame.

Rear suspension performance is based on BOTH the frame linkage design and the shock itself. Problem with all the China frames I see is that you really don’t know anything about the kinematics of the design. The fact that one might LOOK like a more well known frame means nothing.

Even if the suspension is a good design, if you want excellent performance, you need the shock to be matched to the suspension, both in terms of air volume and damping (at least getting the base tune in the right ballpark).

Honestly, a well designed suspension linkage with properly matched mid range shock is going to perform better than a mediocre design with a high end shock that is not optimized for the frame.

TLDR: if you want top of the line suspension, use a known and well reviewed frame design.

Also check the geometry of the frame. At least that is likely listed. I am a huge fan of “modern” geo, and often time this knock off frames are a little behind the curve.

As far as a Fox 36 vs 34, if this is on a 140mm travel bike (F/R), you could go either way.

CrimsonEclipse

I'll get the crayons for you.

(try not to eat them)

prj71

You may need the crayons for yourself for talking so silly.

veganbikes

What are the risks? Who are these people? Why couldn't you answer those questions and had to go to silly childish talk of "crayon eating"

You initially gave really poor advice and can't even back up what you said on it. Why say it in the first place? If you don't stand behind those convictions of suspension being "too much risks" and people dropping it for the reason of "eeney meanie miney moe" just find a thread you can contribute to.

CrimsonEclipse

OKAAY!! Sure! YaBetchya!

prj71

Sarah Palin has entered the chat...

eshew

1st off, test ride as many bikes as you can. There are some AMAZING rear suspension designs out there & none of them are on generic frames.

Picking suspension up front: My general rule: if you're a big guy or ride hard 35mm+ stanchions. Higher end dampers will help when you start pushing hard or going big.

Rear suspension is a bit more complicated. In a perfect world you'd be buying a bike frame with a rear shock. Most companies will have specific "tunes" for compression and rebound for the frame design. Getting it wrong sucks.
If you do buy a frame without a shock it's best to either figure out what tune the manufacturer suggests or look for a similar design and see what they use. I prefer shocks I can do basic services on (air can seals) The Fox X2 is a great shock but requires a certified suspension shop for even the most basic needs. It's best to know what you like & don't like about your current shock & see if you can find a shock that helps to keep your issues to a minimum.

Custom tuned suspension dampers and rear shocks are even better, but tough to stomach the price and lead times.

Ryan_M

Yeah for some of it the hard tail is quite cabable, but there is some times where I'd really appreciate a rear sus. Also I suspect I'll eventually be seeking out more challenging terrain, plus it's also easier on my knees. Talking to some peeps that know the area the suggestion was a trail bike along the lines of a stumpjumper 140mm/130mm would be a where I want to be. I may still keep the HT for the fast and flat stuff though, it is quick! Thanks for the input!

Ryan_M

I wouldn't call the frames knock offs or generic, lesser known sure.... they don't have Trek or Giant stickers on them.

As to shock tuning, there doesn't seem to a ton of info out there about it that I've found so far. The consensus is the "tuned" shocks from bike manufacturers are based on intended use of the bike, average rider weight's etc.. Apparently nothing magic about it, they'll just get the shocks for example with L compression and M rebound if they feel it will suit most of the masses and to get the adjustments on the shock into a usable range. The kinematics for one of the frames I'm considering people are saying a M/M tune works well. The leverage ratio is smoothly progressive but there is some slight regression in the last 15mm of suspension travel so suggestions are to add volume spacers to make the end of travel of the air spring less linear.

I was going through some Rockshox documentation and will likely go with a RS at least for the rear. Their documentation is fantastic and I like that there's less specialty tools needed for the home mechanic. The internal compression and rebound tuning seems cheap and easy to do by modifying the shim stack - at least jumping between predefined tunes like L-M-H. It'll take some experimentation but that's part of the fun!

staehpj1

That all makes sense. In my case I mostly ride the fully suspended bike despite it actually being a bit slower on the terrain I am riding it on. I do find myself thinking about ways to make it lighter and wonder if I'd have been better off building up or buying a hard tail that was real light and had a nicer fork.

As it is I do have choices. If I want a change of pace I have a not quite as nice hard tail and a top of the line but dated (circa 1990) rigid mtb that was my old race bike in those days. Both are still fun to ride.

Kapusta

What frame are you looking at?

frdfandc

What's your background? Mine is the automotive field. Everything from a tech to a manager. So taking to bikes was easy. Built my first bike. Kona Kikapu Deluxe F/S. I spent 2 months researching F/S frames. Same with components. First off figured out what kind of trails I ride and want to ride, and sourced my frame from that. I wanted a 100mm travel XC bike that descended well, but climbed well. The Kona was selected because of their more relaxed geometry which made them more capable on the downs.

I wanted suspension components I could work on at home. So Rockshock got the nod for price and serviceability. Even their service manuals state that one of the tools needed is a beer.

CrimsonEclipse

Similar background.
Serviceability is a big factor for me, and led me to some interesting choices.
Bike fit is much more important in the cycling portion, but flex lessons in cars (older Corvettes) helped me with certain bikes too.
Rear suspension adds moving parts, flex, extra tuning and maintenance, proprietary parts, and copious amounts of planned obsolesce.
The more complicated the suspension, the more likely I am to go higher end and have a professional tune the system. And so far, it just hasn't been worth it to me.

Just so happens is my riding is not competition and I don't throw my bike off the side of a cliff and jump after it so a few pounds extra on the total system to save a few thousand dollars is an easy choice.

Purchased a fat bike to eliminate the need for any suspension.
Learned that front suspension was still (kinda) needed for the unexpected "screw you" bump/rut hiding in the leaves/snow but rear suspension just isn't necessary with a 4.8" tire at 7psi

My experience with full suspension has been mixed. Partially my fault since it was still relatively new at the time and I went lowish on the price tag. All things engineering is compromise. (some Giant frame, can't remember which one)

Add the complication that most dealers I've encountered want to sell me what they want me to buy and not what was good for my ride and they usually don't let anyone test ride a full suspension or even rent it.
"you riding on a green way? you need 360mm or travel on a CF frame that is obviously 2 sizes too big. We'll change the stem and that'll be good enough"
(Yeah, you suck at your job, rookie)

I start cheap and have reverse buyers' remorse "I should have gone with a higher quality" about 10% of the time.
(My purchase of an RST instead of a Bluto wasn't my best choice but COVID supply was also a factor)
Might try that with a Chinese FS frame and build it up for kicks, but it's just not a priority right now.

or if I ever find a shop that... well... doesn't suck, i might try FS again.

Ryan_M

I am (was?) seriously considering the Carbonda FM1001. It's a trail frame, though some are calling it a mini enduro even though they have a enduro specific frame. It has 120mm/135mm rear travel depending on shock used, so would be likely be 140-150F/135R if I built on this frame. The geometry is pretty close to the Stumpy.





Over that last couple rides ive been paying more attention to how my current bike feels and what I feel I want. I definitely want rear suspension but I'm not sure I want to go so far into trail geometry territory. There's a type of frame that some are calling down country, some say ar XC but with more suspension (120mm), that now has my interest. In that group there's the newer Carbonda FM909, and the slightly older FM936. The site shows both have 100mm rear travel but both are recently available with 120mm rear sus parts as well. There's also the SPCycle SP-M861. It's a brand new frame that has just started shipping so no feedback yet.

I'm not in a rush - I have until spring. I'm also learning quite a bit about suspension (unfortunately all text book and not real world experience) so another reason to not be in a hurry. I've seen some suspension analysis done on these frames and the software is only $25 so I might spring for that to play with it on my own.

Ryan_M

Being an electrician is what pays the bills but I do a lot of different things at home... wood working, hobby machinist, design/build speakers/ design/build telescopes including the optics, bikes (duh!), electronics and coding, etc.. I've been working with tools since I was a little kid so have a need for taking things apart and building them. One thing I've found from buildng your own stuff (in a lot of different aspects) is at the lower end of the budget it's always a $ losing venture vs commercial, but as you go higher you can save a bunch!!! I built my roadie and saved a bit over $2k vs the closest commercial offering I could find except the trimmings are better on mine, Pirelli tires and a Fizik saddle vs. the proprietery stuff Giant puts on their bikes for example.




If I wasn't sold before, I am now!!!

DMC707

Why don’t you find a complete bike .

Polygon makes good bikes cheap

their distributor also sells Marin bikes on the cheap. (Bikesonline.com )

don’t overthink it, just get your size, ride and be happy. Avoid anything cheap enough to have Suntour suspension - Fox is where you want to be. Some Rock Shox items are also fine

Black Friday deals coming up

Sierra_rider

If you plan on riding the same trails that you're currently doing on your hardtail, I'd definitely lean towards a downcountry/xc build. A trail bike would likely be fine. If you start encroaching into enduro bike territory, it's easy to kill the fun by being over-biked. My 160mm enduro bike isn't really that fun to ride unless I'm hitting the technical hike-a-bike stuff...on smooth single track, it's like commuting to work in a trophy truck. The XC bike feels like a sports car on a twisty highway.

Even a trail bike might feel a bit sluggish if you're used to a hardtail. Get a decently light XC/downcountry bike, with good suspension geo, and you won't really miss the hardtail. I race XC, so I am a bit partial towards full-suspension short travel bikes. That being said, my race bike this season is going to be a 120/115mm "downcountry" style XC bike. I'd be hesitant about rear suspension design on an open-mold Chinese frame, but that XC frame uses a flex-stay design similar to my Santa Cruz. It'll probably be fine and that is a lightweight design.

tungsten

.....get 'er done.

veganbikes

What is the point of saying that? Why do people always need to qualify themselves as not a professional or racing or competition we know that we aren't simpletons. If you were a professional we probably wouldn't hear half of the stuff you have said and you would be riding team bikes.

We know people aren't professionals but someone suggesting good quality parts has ZERO to do with being a professional. Of course a shop isn't going to tell you to buy the wally mart bike they are going to sell you something of good quality so you can get out there and enjoy it with less time in the shop and more time riding. I am not trying to sell you the better bike because I might make a few bucks extra but because I truly don't want to see you often for maintenance (I do want to see you often to say hey bike is great having fun need to pick up something) but I hate having maintenance issues all the time.

I don't know what shop you may have gone to but every shop I have worked at has allowed test rides on full suspension bikes. I may not just let anyone ride it if I feel like you aren't really interested or are going to do damage but I have yet to go into a shop that hasn't allowed FS test rides and I have been in a bunch of shops both as an employee and as a customer or just someone poking around because I love bike shops. Maybe they sense something in you. Heck at Mellow Johnny's they were going to let me ride Lance Armstrongs bike and stupidly at the time I said no because I was a bit nervous.

There is very little full suspension stuff I cannot get parts or service for, even the ill fated Specialized Brain shock that bears the Fox logo can be replaced as needed even though both companies disavow it. However that is a rare oddity most stuff I can get parts for pretty easily or with a little measurement or I can generally find a replacement of some sort. Of course yes there is some really early stuff that could be tougher to find but any really old stuff that was new and non-standardized can always be tough to find but usually there are work-arounds. Just because one doesn't have the knowledge doesn't mean it is hard or you should avoid it because there is one person who just cannot use a search engine or call up a suspension service center and ask for help or say go on a bike forum like say Bike Forums and ask a question.

Also a fat bike is not a replacement for a full suspension bike, they are two different bikes and certainly yes low pressure high volume tires do help a bit they aren't suspension and tires that wide are silly for single track or anything outside of sand and snow and really loose stuff. They are fun and obviously you can do some mountain biking on them but they really aren't great in that role as like a trail bike or AM or Enduro or similar genre.

NOBODY suggested you get some fake full suspension bike to ride on the greenway, your story is completely fabricated and is not needed. You have the issues not your shop. They didn't suggest that bike for the greenway one because it doesn't exist and two because it is completely impractical and nonsensical. There is a YouTuber who made a 300mm travel DH bike but that was a custom jobber and not practical in the real world. There have been times where employees have suggested incorrectly sized bikes for a number of reasons but usually not two sizes bigger and if I see someone on the wrong size frame it is usually a result of the customer wanting the oversized bike which I get often and I tell them look it is the wrong bike and they refuse to listen.

The only time I might actually suggest a larger bike for someone is if they want a more stable ride with a FS mountain bike sizing can be less of an issue as it is more about the ride you want with a smaller bike you get a faster more maneuverable bike and with a larger bike you get a more stable planted ride and will be a bit more upright. However that is not to say that I am selling you a bike that is not rideable for you.

Please don't blame the shop for personal issues that are internal if you aren't knowledgeable on full suspension that is fine, you don't need to be it is OK. Not everyone is going to have knowledge in everything. I couldn't tell you much about Quantum Physics or different skis so I generally don't make outrageous stories about them I just leave it to folks who do know. I know there are some people who are just not compatible with certain shops and there are always going to be a few shops here and there that might be terrible or have been terrible in the past for one reason or another but usually it is a clash of personalities more so than actual issue and sometimes you have an issue. It is retail and not everyone is always cut out for it or maybe you catch someone on a bad day maybe something happened in their life and unfortunately they brought it to the shop or maybe it happened at the shop and they are still processing through it. Regardless you need to first look at yourself and your side of the interaction and see if you could have improved and if you can truly and honestly say you couldn't have improved at all then yeah maybe it was the shop but then be honest about the experience. Leave the fiction to the professionals let Robert A. Heinlein or J.R.R. Toilkien handle the fantastical stories they were really good at it.

Ryan_M

This was excellent information. Thank you!.