BakinaRakija

Hi everyone!

I just rescued this frame with brakes, derrailleurs, downtube shifters, BB, stem, handlebars and levers from a guy who had it collecting dust and clearly didn't care about it and the price was basically nothing. It's seen its fair share of use and abuse, and I would like your help with identification, so I know if it's even worth restoring. As I said, it was super cheap and I mainly bought it for the lug style.



All seems fine from afar

The only spot where i found the original paint

Not sure what this hole is about


Pretty messy, if you ask me


Drive side

This bracket, only on this side, is really interesting, I have no idea what its for



How this happend I can't even imagine, but I'm pretty sure i can bang it back into place, the chainstay kinks are there to stay, unfortunately


I'm not sure it even is a Bottecchia, since it has clearly been repainted and stickers put on after that, I'm not aware of any bikes that had internal routing at that time, so it's gonna be a tough one, or at least a challenge for you vintage nerds.

A bit of history that I'm sure of: the front sticker is from a former Yugoslavian-Slovenian (my country) bike brand "Rog", most likely stuck on there for the purpose of smuggling the bike across the border from Italy into Yugoslavia by way of riding it through customs and pointing out the stickers to the officials, who allowed Rog racing teams to participate in cross-border events. My father "imported" his Wilier Triestina in '79 the same way, with Rog jerseys and all that jazz.

The downtube shifters and rear derailleur are Gian Robert -yet to be dated, the front derailleur was an after market 80's shimano, the stem and a ridiculously heavy seatpost were unmarked. It has 710 engraved in on top of the seat tube, with a triangle shaped symbol before the number. I don't intend to use anything that came with the frame, since most of it is in bad condition, except for the stem and headset.

I would also like to thank the internet for hosting such a treasury of information and kind people.

I can post aditional photos, if required for ID

Cheers,

Grega

bikemig 

Really interesting bike and great back story about "Rog" bikes. Most of the posters here are based in the US and North America so this is very interesting for us. I don't know if it's a Bottechia but certainly looks Italian. It would be a little unusual to "fake" a middling quality bike (it does have stamped drop outs which usually, but not always, suggests that this is not a top end bike) in the US but that might not be true where you live. Agreed that the internal cable routing must be a later addition.

I have no idea what that bracket brazed on to the right rear drop out is for but yeah this bike has been modded by someone.

oneclick 

The hole at the bottom of the seat-lug slot is a good thing, it reduces stress-raisers at the bottom of the slot.

The scars in the chainstay need to be investigated; especially the top one, would be worth a dab of braze on each.

The rear bracket is for a chainguard.

YES it should be saved.

BakinaRakija

The hole I was wondering about is on the headtube, one pic above the seat joint picture. Pardon my enlish, whad did you mean by "a dab of braze"?

non-drive side chainstay:

juvela

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thanks so much for sharing this interesting find!

frame constructed of Agrati bits

its head and seat lugs are shown on the right in this illustration -




Bottecchia (Tedodoro Carnielli) did employ this lug pattern in the 1950's and 1960's

hole in lower head lug is for dynamo lighting system wiring

internal routing of gear cable not an add-on

enthusiasts here in North America know the Slovenian Rog marque for folding bicycles which were imported in the early 1970's

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oneclick 

Hole near the head tube may be for wiring; are there other holes near where a dynamo would be mounted?

"dab of braze" - a bit of the bronze of the sort used to join the lugs could be used to fill the scars, the top one is deep enough that I'd worry about it.

dent on the non-drive side - not a structural issue.

juvela

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looks as though it would have been built with a single plateau drive train

possible that green paint visible in bottom bracket shell is part of a primer coat

fork ends are Agrati item nr. 000.8010

drop outs are Agrati item nr. 000.8002

if one takes the Carnielli transfer set to be original, or just correct, cycle would have to date from the late 1960's or every early 1970's; one of the transfers makes reference to a Bottecchia racing victory of 1966

as far as we know the manufacturer ceased employment of this lug pattern by 1972

cycle's original chainguard and mudguards may have been products of the Mazzucchelli concern -




you mention the machine's gear ensemble is Gian Robert; did you get any other fittings with it?

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T-Mar

Based on the presence of the chainguard mount and the internal routing for the rear gear cable, it would appear to have been a condorino style, light touring bicycle, probably 4 or 5 speeds, as suggested by juvela.

BakinaRakija

You guys are the absolute best!

Regarding the driveside chainstay dent: the parallel one, which seems to have an imprint of something clamped onto it, seem more like a feature of the stock frame rather than an injury, at least i've seen this feature on many frames and always thought of it as such, correct me if I'm wrong. Im more annoyed by all the stuff that's latched onto it.



The underside of the fork lugs is painted, which I refuse to believe was standard procedure for Bottecchia, so I still think a repaint was done at some point.

There are mudguard mounts, but nothing that would suggest a dynamo. Could have been removed before the repaint.

I will post more pictures of the rest of the gear that came with the frame tomorrow, once I give them a decent wash and a quick polish.

I can quite imagine something with chrome mudguards!

I'm immensly grateful for all replies thusfar.

Wildwood 

My '72 Bottecchia Giro 'd Italia (10sp) has the under-area between the fork legs painted. Had not noticed before, silver paint and chromed lug, but just checked it. Same on a 60's Frejus, paint between fork legs. Both seemed a bit more carefully applied than your example.

Sorry, nothing to add on frame ID.
Bottecchia was obviously a supplier of many styles of bikes.

T-Mar

Paint on the underside chromium plated crowns is very common. Masking around the underside of the crown is labour intensive and therefore costly. The most economical way to paint a fork and protect the chromed crown is with a fabricated hood that slips over the steering column and slides down over the crown. It masks the crown race and top, front, back and sides of the crown, but can't wrap around under the crown.

BakinaRakija

Thanks for all the additional information! Below are some photos of other parts that came with the frame, perhaps it can lead to some discoveries. Had only the time to clean them, my old man insisted on polishing the bits himself, which of course is gonna take a while.



Didnt bother cleaning, because I have a better set of similar brakes on a donor-frame that i got super cheap as well.





handlebar marking

juvela

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fittings shown -

the Super Rapid brake calipers are likely original

the stem, bar and brake levers are likely replacements
the levers are Universal so not a match for the calipers
the 3TTT stem is somewhat later than the cycle

it is likely the original stem/bar set was an upright one

the headset is Way-Assauto -




this firm is yet in operation today but ceased the fabrication of cycle fittings about 1972

if the Gian Robert gear ensemble is original to the cycle it could be of assistance in narrowing down a time for its manufacture

as with all brands of gears there are differing models and generations within given models

this web site is an outstanding resource for information as to technical and historical data on gear mechs. it has a section for Gian Robert located here -

Gian Robert derailleurs

if shift levers original to cycle then it would have left factory with multi-plateau drive train
Gian Robert gears are certainly plausible for an Italian machine of this application...

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sometimes serial placement and format can be a helpful clue in attempting to determine a machine's origin



major Italian producers who place their serial in this spot on the drive side of the seat tube include Torresini (Torpado) & Cesare Rizzato (Atala, & a number of other marques)

the maker of Bottecchia badged cycles, Teodoro Carnielli had other marques as well

Torresini began their serials with a small undecipherable triangular symbol

Rizzato serials begin with a single letter followed by four numerals

since your eyes are the ones on the scene perhaps you can tell us if the first character of the frame's serial is clearly a letter V or if you think it is something else, a symbol perchance?

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BakinaRakija

Thanks!

It did come to mind when unassembling the bike that the geometry would perhaps suit a flat bar setup a bit more. I don't like the headset design, except for the very top part, I will consider buying another and putting the top part from this one on, if it turns out not-so-nice after polishing.

The disraeli gears website places my derailleur as a 1970 model, although mine has one round and one toothed pulley wheel, probably replaced at some point.

Regarding the frame number, the V shaped indentation infront of the 710 number seems more like a symbol than a letter, mostly because it's not as tall as the numbers, and pretty equal sided (I would assume a letter V would have two side longer than the third accidental one. But it's a wild guess in any case, because the seat tube has bumps and bruises on that spot, probably from leaning the bike onto something. It was a commuter at some point, no doubt (It had a modern plastic light/speedometer mount on the handlebar)

I don't really feel the need to investigate any further, I believe it's a 10 speed bottechia around 1970, that's about enough. I'm gonna try to find some catalogues or contact Bottecchia directly if they can provide some. Any good websites/libraries for catalogues?

I have to start thinking about the restoration.

I would like to provide the bike with the latest or last-gen technology that would suit it's road/touring pedigree, without too modern looking components. The first hurdle I face is finding a classic looking 10/11 speed rear wheel without braking the bank. (I will build one myself if I must) I consider putting a 5 speed back on there the same as baby-talking to your grandfather. And I think the bike can handle 130mm road spacing.

Dia compe makes 11 speed downtube shifters, do you guys know of any other models that I can get used (and cheap) that would shift an 11 speed cassette? It doesn't have to be indexed, friction is fine by me (I presume the Gian Robert ones are not going to pull enough cable)

The other pickle is going to be finding a silver crankset and internal cable routing compatible BB. Like I said, I don't intend to race the bike so I would much rather go with small jumps in the cassette and a sub-compact crankset. I have a 0.87 low gear on my current do-it-all bike (28front, 32 back), and it's just about enough (pretty mountainous region where I live), I don't think I would need lower than 0.8.

The rest is more cosmetic, by some chance a guy is selling a semi-preserved selle italia dolphin white saddle with bottechia underside very close to me, I might go with that and match the bartape and hoods to that.

Maybe the hardest choice for last, to repaint or not to repaint? I don't think I can get any new life out of the existing paint, it's ok in direct sunlight, but otherwise it's more of a sun-burned sparkle red turning to orange brown. And there's a lot of places where it chipped off already. I'm considering soda-blasting to preserve the chrome, and then repainting myself, so that I can mask the front lugs (and any other chrome if it pops out) properly. I would also like to check for any other possible structural issues and corrosion.

Thanks for helping me on this exciting journey!

BakinaRakija

I dont know why I didn't think to check this sooner, the fork is noticeably longer. Mudguards and long reach caliper brakes are the way to go, I suppose.