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All City Zig Zag

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Road Cycling It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle. -- Ernest Hemingway

All City Zig Zag

Old 09-03-19, 05:02 AM
  #26  
Sy Reene
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Originally Posted by pattrick View Post
Looking for a bike that can take 32mm tires and cruise on the back roads. I just saw this bike and the spec and paint job for the 105 look promising. I wish the fork was a flat mount brake to match the rear but otherwise all seemed well sorted out? The price never makes me happy but that's always the case. I still think it is tolerable given the level of total build. The tubing is not known to me and am curious of others opinions of it given they use it on another model. I will probably not be able to see one or test ride before trying to purchase one which makes things agonizing for me to buy.
There's always the Ribble solution. Reynolds 725 fwiw

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-cgr-725/
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Old 09-03-19, 05:27 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
$2700 for a 105 bike is crazy to me, but I dont buy new bikes from retail stores, so I am neither the target audience or up to date on what to expect for 105 hydro steel frame bikes.

When it's broken down, I'm just not sure where savings would be expected, if not in the groupset.
The frameset costs $1200 and has a $500 retail fork that is comparable in spec and price to similar forks. So the frame is effectively priced at $700. That doesnt seem awful for a thru axle quality steel(whatever the details are, it obviously isn't junk) frame with a nice paint job.
It would be great to see it for less, but is that realistic? A $520 retail fork could be essentially priced at $400 for the frameset and the frame could be essentially priced at $550. $950 for the frameset- still more expensive than jamis renegade(an example), but cheaper than Ritchey logic, Fairlight Strael, etc.
Soma fog cutter with carbon fork is $800, but no TA(does it really matter?), no flat mount(does it really matter), aluminum steerer fork(heavier, but does it matter?), and not as cool paint(it does matter!).
At the same time, AC apparently doesnt think they should price themselves for less and at $1200 it's in line with other steel frame carbon fork models from other brands.


Where I really think savings should be found with regards to the full build is the whiskey branded cockpit, wheels, and the shimano components. All that should in theory be cheaper than online retail.


I dont follow your mention of shimano introducing worse and more primitive groupsets. That's happening right now? I am not aware. The current Sora and Claris seems quite fine for the price level, based on my admittedly limited experience, but relatively extensive maintenance of both groups.
And you mention Claris is still 8sp...should it be 9? If so, why? What's Sora then? Etc etc.
Something to know is that"Whisky Components"....is QBP's house branding parts lineup for carbon fiber, just as "All City" is a QBP house branding for steel frames. They're both owned and operated by Quality Bicycle Products. The reason the parts don't get cheaper, is because of vertical integration--QBP AKA Whisky only recently even allowed (only) JensonUSA and Universal to sell online....otherwise the only place to get their parts is via your QBP LBS.

For many years...people were espousing the trickle-down theory of parts tech to the mid/lower end. Sora was the junk groupset that came on entry-bikes. Even back 10-15 years ago it was 8-speed when 105 and the rest were 10 speed; today it still lags behind having been blessed with 9-speed (finally, welcome to the late 1990s)...Shimano wanted "new"-old entry level groupsets since Sora wasn't quite so crappy....so they released Claris. Meanwhile bikes still got more expensive as did parts.
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Old 09-03-19, 08:45 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Something to know is that"Whisky Components"....is QBP's house branding parts lineup for carbon fiber, just as "All City" is a QBP house branding for steel frames. They're both owned and operated by Quality Bicycle Products. The reason the parts don't get cheaper, is because of vertical integration--QBP AKA Whisky only recently even allowed (only) JensonUSA and Universal to sell online....otherwise the only place to get their parts is via your QBP LBS.

For many years...people were espousing the trickle-down theory of parts tech to the mid/lower end. Sora was the junk groupset that came on entry-bikes. Even back 10-15 years ago it was 8-speed when 105 and the rest were 10 speed; today it still lags behind having been blessed with 9-speed (finally, welcome to the late 1990s)...Shimano wanted "new"-old entry level groupsets since Sora wasn't quite so crappy....so they released Claris. Meanwhile bikes still got more expensive as did parts.
Yes, aware that Whiskey is a QBP brand- thats why I mentioned I thought some savings could/should be found in the Whiskey cockpit. Whiskey components are aluminum and carbon though, not just carbon. One thing I did get wrong in the first complaint was that I didnt account for the stock wheels to be carbon rims. That changes the expected cost for sure as I was comparing them to some good quality(but not great) alloy handbuilt wheels weighing 1750g or so. No idea how good the stock Whiskey wheels are, but based on the listed bike weight, I would guess they arent anything super light. That may be a selling point for some though since they are carbon rims.

As for your explanation of what you meant when you said its no wonder Shimano keeps having to unveil worse and more primitive groupsets...I still dont understand. Since indexing, Shimano has had a bunch of mid/lower level groups. Sport LX, Exage 300/400/500, and RX100 being some old examples. You mention they keep having to unveil worse and more primitive groupsets, but entry level Claris has been around for 15 years. I just dont see where they are continuing to unveil worse and more primitive groupsets.
But really- what are you expecting here?- Shimano wants to service the price spectrum of bikes and they have a wide range of drivetrains to allow bike brands to meet price points. Its been that way for decades in the industry- Campy, SunTour, Simplex, Shimano, Huret, etc etc- different levels of finish and refinement to allow brands to meet price points.
Not sure why you 'cough coughed' at Claris 8sp being updated. Do you expect Shimano to not update their models or are you expecting Claris to have more speeds? It sounds like you expect Claris to have more speeds since you criticize Sora for still being 9 speed. Really- what do you expect Sora to be? If Sora becomes 10, then whats Tiagra? If Tiagra becomes 11, then whats 105? Etc etc etc. There is more than just speed difference- weight and material differences between groups. My wife's 9sp Sora shifts great, but feels more plasticy than my old 9sp Ultegra from years prior. Thats to be expected since they were different levels of refinement and material. That trickle down is still active- It happened for Sora a few years ago and Claris a couple years ago with the change to shift cables under the tape and new hood shapes. Cranksets visually changed too and are now 4 arm and HTII bottom brackets like the higher level cranks. That all trickled down from the higher level groups.

Yes- bikes and parts got more expensive compared to 15 years ago. Most everything is more expensive.
All this sounds like complaints you have with the industry in general and you are just applying it to QBP/AC/this bike. I get annoyed with components that are more expensive than what I want to pay or think they should cost, but I am also not on the inside and dont know the costs and expenses for everything in the industry.
I am building up a new gravel frame(ironically enough- a steel frame carbon fork for about $1200, like this thread) and decided to use most of my current bike's drivetrain due to cost and also because I like the components. I didnt want to spend the money to get GRX or a full Ultegra hydraulic drivetrain because what I have combined with a couple changes will make me more than happy for 20% of the cost.


The local large grocer recently installed self checkout. I dont expect prices to drop even though they can use less employees to checkout more people. They are doing it to keep up with competition and to stave off inevitable price increases. Same thing with cycling.




edited to add- good lord im typing too much. I really dont disagree with the idea that this frameset isnt cheap(mentioned it in my first post), but just not sure how realistic it is to be priced less. There really arent many comparable alternatives.

Last edited by mstateglfr; 09-03-19 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 09-03-19, 09:07 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
One thing I did get wrong in the first complaint was that I didnt account for the stock wheels to be carbon rims. ... That may be a selling point for some though since they are carbon rims.
Where are you getting this? The specs indicate WTB ST Light i19 rims. While I don't see the "Light" designation on their site, the ST i19 rims are certainly not carbon; that I see, the carbon WTB rims have a CiXX designation, with the XX being their internal width in mm.
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Old 09-03-19, 09:18 AM
  #30  
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Ive always really wanted to like All City bikes.

Every model Ive ever looked at has been...off...somehow, in some weird yet critical way. And, on top of that, costs just a little bit more than I think it should.
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Old 09-03-19, 12:48 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Where are you getting this? The specs indicate WTB ST Light i19 rims. While I don't see the "Light" designation on their site, the ST i19 rims are certainly not carbon; that I see, the carbon WTB rims have a CiXX designation, with the XX being their internal width in mm.
Ha, ok and we are back to what I originally thought- the rims are alloy. I confused myself because I accidentally looked at the Ultegra spec the second time which has the carbon rims. Thanks for confirming Im not losing my mind!
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Old 09-03-19, 02:20 PM
  #32  
seau grateau
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I don't know about All-City sometimes. They make some nice bikes but sometimes the pricing just makes no sense to me.
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Old 09-03-19, 07:42 PM
  #33  
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Wow! Just saw one in person at a local bike shop. Beautiful 2 tone purple paint! Over priced perhaps. But no one else has such a beautiful paint.
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Old 09-04-19, 06:07 AM
  #34  
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Thanks again everybody for this really helpful discussion- much I didn't know and had not thought of. I'm starting to talk with my LBS about doing a build if I get one of the frames suggested such as the Cosmic Stallion, or maybe I'll save $1300 and just get the Kona Wheelhouse. I think the Kona Roadhouse was really the bike I should have gotten but they are discontinued and I can't even find a frame. But maybe one'll pop up.

This is not an emergency decision but I am really ready for a real road bike. Thank you all!
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Old 09-22-19, 10:17 AM
  #35  
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So the orange / red Ultegra build does come with Whisky carbon rims. Our shop just built one up in 55cm and it was 21 lbs 01 oz without pedals. It has a fairly hefty aluminum seatpost, the seat is not light, and the aluminum bars aren't the lightest, either. This bike could easily get to 20 pounds, IMO. The purple 105 build comes with alloy wheels but we haven't had one in our shop to weigh yet. Just giving some real world information. I ride a 2016 Salsa Colossal with Ultegra drivetrain, BB7 brakes, and 32mm Bontrager AW3 tires. The 105 Zig Zag is very comparable, but has front and rear thru axles, way more tire clearance (can fit 32s with fenders, whereas my Colossal is almost rubbing the fork with 32s), a threaded bottom bracket, and flat mount 105 hydraulic disc brakes. If I didn't already have the Colossal I would definitely be getting the 105 Zig Zag.

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Old 09-22-19, 01:24 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Gconan View Post
Wow! Just saw one in person at a local bike shop. Beautiful 2 tone purple paint! Over priced perhaps. But no one else has such a beautiful paint.
The LBS has a tenth anniversary Mr. Pink in black with pink and purple flecks. It's absolutely gorgeous, and really, more companies need to get back to making bikes that actually look nice. Too many black carbon bikes out there.

Cinelli does a decent job at providing style too. ACB's (and their sister Surly and Salsa brands) seem to be popular here- I think ACB market toward a younger/affluent market which might explain their somewhat high pricing. If you were set on a mid-range off-the-shelf steel road bike, something like the Jamis Quest Elite (Reynolds 631, 105 group) or Cinelli Vigorelli (Columbus Thron, SRAM 1x Apex group ) are comparable at better price points (and the Cinelli in particular isn't a bad looker either).

I think Gunnar has bikes in the All-City price range as well, and those are, IIRC, basically Waterfords which are TIG-welded instead of lugged, and offered in off-the-shelf sizes.

Last edited by sheddle; 09-22-19 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 09-22-19, 06:43 PM
  #37  
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Look what is on sale,
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Old 09-22-19, 07:05 PM
  #38  
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Old 09-28-19, 09:33 AM
  #39  
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Hi folks, OP here. Thank you for all of your suggestions. After much overthinking over what is in the long run a low-stakes decision, I went with the Kona Roadhouse. I really should have bought one when Jenson had them on clearance for about $2400, but I got one for the same price as the Zig Zag and it's Ultegra and maybe a little bit more of a relaxed geometry. (But probably not much.) Put the Kona together last night and giving it a ride later today.

Thanks all.
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Old 09-28-19, 05:14 PM
  #40  
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OK just got back from a 25 mile rail trail ride with my weekend riding partner.

Roadhouse is AWESOME, but bear in mind, I've been riding a bike I call "the Tank" as it's a heavy steel cross bike that clocks in at 29 lbs and change. So the Roadhouse felt like a rocket ship and oh my goodness, Ultegra shifts like a dream compared to 2013 Tiagra. It's just so pleasant!

I need to get this bike fitted, though, as the posture feels a little too aggressive for me, and I am <not> sold on the Brooks Cambium C15 saddle. It's rubber and fabric and doesn't have a groove for your nerves down there, so might swap that out.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm SO psyched about the new bike. If you'd told me some years back that I'd be spending almost 3K on a bike, I wouldn't have believed you, but it sure puts my old bike to shame.
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