Tacx Fortius VR
03-27-10, 08:39 AM
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Tacx Fortius VR
I've recently moved to the Middle East for 6 months on a consulting gig and cycling on the roads here is mostly a terrifying experience. Plus, with summer and temperatures in the 45-50C range fast approaching, I am limited to about 1 hr/day of riding in the mornings before I have to go to work.
I am going backwards in my cycling goals for 2010, and was thinking of getting a trainer to ride indoors. The only problem is, I *loathe* trainers. I have a Minoura ****ob RDA80 something-or-the-other and it sucks my ass. I'd rather bounce off the top tube on my nuts than do anything over an hour on that boredom-inducing machine from Hades.
However, I have been very intrigued by the Tacx Fortius VR unit, especially the Virtual Reality DVDs. For those of you who have this unit - how close to "real" cycling does it feel when you pedal? Obviously, I am not going to get the side to side motion, but in terms of pedaling resistance, does it closely approximate a real ride? And when you are riding those virtual reality tours, does the power/gear/cadence requirement approximate what you would actually put out if you were riding that road in reality?
TIA,
V.
I am going backwards in my cycling goals for 2010, and was thinking of getting a trainer to ride indoors. The only problem is, I *loathe* trainers. I have a Minoura ****ob RDA80 something-or-the-other and it sucks my ass. I'd rather bounce off the top tube on my nuts than do anything over an hour on that boredom-inducing machine from Hades.
However, I have been very intrigued by the Tacx Fortius VR unit, especially the Virtual Reality DVDs. For those of you who have this unit - how close to "real" cycling does it feel when you pedal? Obviously, I am not going to get the side to side motion, but in terms of pedaling resistance, does it closely approximate a real ride? And when you are riding those virtual reality tours, does the power/gear/cadence requirement approximate what you would actually put out if you were riding that road in reality?
TIA,
V.
Last edited by guadzilla; 03-27-10 at 12:41 PM.
03-27-10, 11:04 AM
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The Tacx is the only thing that keeps me sane in the winter...well, that and skiing. Okay, those things and Scotch. I actually look forward to riding my bike on the trainer. I have done several three-hour rides this winter, and it keeps me entertained enough that I 1) haven't gained any weight over the winter and 2) just did one of my benchmark road tests and exceeded last year's best performance (and it is just thawing here!). The simulation is pretty good to very good (the last year's VR DVDs are the best). Some of the early DVDs didn't sync the image to the variation in wattage very well (you can tell by the DVD that you are going downhill, but the wattage doesn't match the scene).
I have friends that poopoo the Virtual Reality simulation, but I think it works very well, the simulation is very good, and with a steering frame you have something to keep your mind off of the suffering a little bit (your avatar can crash, and your penalty is starting from 0 rpm where you stacked it). Setting the viewport to "eye" the simulation viewport leans as you would riding the switchbacks. And I get a really good drubbing whenever I ride in VR...maybe it is a function of my overactive imagination.
The Catalyst is similar to what you'd see with a computrainer. It reintroduces Boring into indoor training for me; it is invaluable for doing controlled interval training, though.
I do not have experience in multiuser, but I have friends that swear by it. They will actually get up at 2am to race someone from half way around the world...
All of that said there are some serious caveats.
1.) It is difficult to get set up and get functional. Pay strict attention to the requirements of the computer that you'll be running it on. I bought a laptop to dedicate just to the device - the risk of screwing up the configuration is too great to do a lot of other things with the PC. I am running it on a Best Buy Special that I paid about $300 for - and the performance is very good, thank you.
2.) Especially the VR world puts a lot of load on the CPU. Depending on your setup, the extra heat from the workload can crash the PC before you get to the end of the workout. We suffered these mystery crashes until we put a fan directly on the PC and that cleared up the issue (Patti has the same setup as I do...)
3.) The experience is better with an LCD TV in the system. Just don't mount it too high - I put mine up a few inches above my normal line of sight to simulate looking up gradient. A long climb becomes even more of a suffer-fest. (We use a 32" El Cheapo from Fred Meyers. We switch the cable between laptops. Works fine.) Actually, the laptop screen works fine too.
4.) If you are looking at a used one, do not buy one with a power supply that has a serial number starting with "46...". They fail regularly, and are not repairable. And a new one costs $400-500. The newer fortius units start with a "49..." serial number. You can imagine how I found that out.
5.) The wattage power curve doesn't match a human power curve very well, and the wattage seems to be a rolling average rather than what you'll see from your powertap. I rode with a powertap on the Fortius early in the winter so I could see how they matched. Really, if you keep the Fortius calibrated (easy) the wattage matches pretty well between 200-300 watts. Because of the lag in computing wattage, I see much higher numbers on the Powertap versus the Fortius (I saw numbers in the 800 watt range on the powertap, but it is very very difficult for me to get the Fortius to go above 550). I think that I am not a smooth enough rider to get much more out of the device anyway, because at those power levels it gets kind of tippy. At the other end of the spectrum, you can be banging along at a very easy 100 watts and the Fortius will stubbornly say that you aren't working at all. Who rides below 100 watts, anyway?
6.) Unless you are deaf, you'll want to go to the Tacx forum and read about the fix for the noisy back roller. They will begin making a lot of racket and you will think that you've trashed your bottom bracket or the bearings in the motor brake, but follow the simple instructions for regluing the metal to the roller and you'll be back in low-volume bliss before you know it.
I have friends that poopoo the Virtual Reality simulation, but I think it works very well, the simulation is very good, and with a steering frame you have something to keep your mind off of the suffering a little bit (your avatar can crash, and your penalty is starting from 0 rpm where you stacked it). Setting the viewport to "eye" the simulation viewport leans as you would riding the switchbacks. And I get a really good drubbing whenever I ride in VR...maybe it is a function of my overactive imagination.
The Catalyst is similar to what you'd see with a computrainer. It reintroduces Boring into indoor training for me; it is invaluable for doing controlled interval training, though.
I do not have experience in multiuser, but I have friends that swear by it. They will actually get up at 2am to race someone from half way around the world...
All of that said there are some serious caveats.
1.) It is difficult to get set up and get functional. Pay strict attention to the requirements of the computer that you'll be running it on. I bought a laptop to dedicate just to the device - the risk of screwing up the configuration is too great to do a lot of other things with the PC. I am running it on a Best Buy Special that I paid about $300 for - and the performance is very good, thank you.
2.) Especially the VR world puts a lot of load on the CPU. Depending on your setup, the extra heat from the workload can crash the PC before you get to the end of the workout. We suffered these mystery crashes until we put a fan directly on the PC and that cleared up the issue (Patti has the same setup as I do...)
3.) The experience is better with an LCD TV in the system. Just don't mount it too high - I put mine up a few inches above my normal line of sight to simulate looking up gradient. A long climb becomes even more of a suffer-fest. (We use a 32" El Cheapo from Fred Meyers. We switch the cable between laptops. Works fine.) Actually, the laptop screen works fine too.
4.) If you are looking at a used one, do not buy one with a power supply that has a serial number starting with "46...". They fail regularly, and are not repairable. And a new one costs $400-500. The newer fortius units start with a "49..." serial number. You can imagine how I found that out.
5.) The wattage power curve doesn't match a human power curve very well, and the wattage seems to be a rolling average rather than what you'll see from your powertap. I rode with a powertap on the Fortius early in the winter so I could see how they matched. Really, if you keep the Fortius calibrated (easy) the wattage matches pretty well between 200-300 watts. Because of the lag in computing wattage, I see much higher numbers on the Powertap versus the Fortius (I saw numbers in the 800 watt range on the powertap, but it is very very difficult for me to get the Fortius to go above 550). I think that I am not a smooth enough rider to get much more out of the device anyway, because at those power levels it gets kind of tippy. At the other end of the spectrum, you can be banging along at a very easy 100 watts and the Fortius will stubbornly say that you aren't working at all. Who rides below 100 watts, anyway?
6.) Unless you are deaf, you'll want to go to the Tacx forum and read about the fix for the noisy back roller. They will begin making a lot of racket and you will think that you've trashed your bottom bracket or the bearings in the motor brake, but follow the simple instructions for regluing the metal to the roller and you'll be back in low-volume bliss before you know it.
Last edited by luker; 03-27-10 at 11:55 AM.
03-27-10, 11:18 AM
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I have the I-Magic so I can't comment on the Fortius hardware, but the software will help you keep your sanity. The RLV's are good and the VR will keep you engaged and not hating the trainer as much. Still no replacement for the real thing, but it really does help. Since you won't be riding outside as much it might be worth looking into the online racing bit to break things up as well.
03-27-10, 12:31 PM
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The Tacx is the only thing that keeps me sane in the winter...well, that and skiing. Okay, those things and Scotch. I actually look forward to riding my bike on the trainer. I have done several three-hour rides this winter, and it keeps me entertained enough that I 1) haven't gained any weight over the winter and 2) just did one of my benchmark road tests and exceeded last year's best performance (and it is just thawing here!). The simulation is pretty good to very good (the last year's VR DVDs are the best). Some of the early DVDs didn't sync the image to the variation in wattage very well (you can tell by the DVD that you are going downhill, but the wattage doesn't match the scene).
I have friends that poopoo the Virtual Reality simulation, but I think it works very well, the simulation is very good, and with a steering frame you have something to keep your mind off of the suffering a little bit (your avatar can crash, and your penalty is starting from 0 rpm where you stacked it). Setting the viewport to "eye" the simulation viewport leans as you would riding the switchbacks. And I get a really good drubbing whenever I ride in VR...maybe it is a function of my overactive imagination.
The Catalyst is similar to what you'd see with a computrainer. It reintroduces Boring into indoor training for me; it is invaluable for doing controlled interval training, though.
I do not have experience in multiuser, but I have friends that swear by it. They will actually get up at 2am to race someone from half way around the world...
All of that said there are some serious caveats.
1.) It is difficult to get set up and get functional. Pay strict attention to the requirements of the computer that you'll be running it on. I bought a laptop to dedicate just to the device - the risk of screwing up the configuration is too great to do a lot of other things with the PC. I am running it on a Best Buy Special that I paid about $300 for - and the performance is very good, thank you.
2.) Especially the VR world puts a lot of load on the CPU. Depending on your setup, the extra heat from the workload can crash the PC before you get to the end of the workout. We suffered these mystery crashes until we put a fan directly on the PC and that cleared up the issue (Patti has the same setup as I do...)
3.) The experience is better with an LCD TV in the system. Just don't mount it too high - I put mine up a few inches above my normal line of sight to simulate looking up gradient. A long climb becomes even more of a suffer-fest. (We use a 32" El Cheapo from Fred Meyers. We switch the cable between laptops. Works fine.) Actually, the laptop screen works fine too.
4.) If you are looking at a used one, do not buy one with a power supply that has a serial number starting with "46...". They fail regularly, and are not repairable. And a new one costs $400-500. The newer fortius units start with a "49..." serial number. You can imagine how I found that out.
5.) The wattage power curve doesn't match a human power curve very well, and the wattage seems to be a rolling average rather than what you'll see from your powertap. I rode with a powertap on the Fortius early in the winter so I could see how they matched. Really, if you keep the Fortius calibrated (easy) the wattage matches pretty well between 200-300 watts. Because of the lag in computing wattage, I see much higher numbers on the Powertap versus the Fortius (I saw numbers in the 800 watt range on the powertap, but it is very very difficult for me to get the Fortius to go above 550). I think that I am not a smooth enough rider to get much more out of the device anyway, because at those power levels it gets kind of tippy. At the other end of the spectrum, you can be banging along at a very easy 100 watts and the Fortius will stubbornly say that you aren't working at all. Who rides below 100 watts, anyway?
6.) Unless you are deaf, you'll want to go to the Tacx forum and read about the fix for the noisy back roller. They will begin making a lot of racket and you will think that you've trashed your bottom bracket or the bearings in the motor brake, but follow the simple instructions for regluing the metal to the roller and you'll be back in low-volume bliss before you know it.
I have friends that poopoo the Virtual Reality simulation, but I think it works very well, the simulation is very good, and with a steering frame you have something to keep your mind off of the suffering a little bit (your avatar can crash, and your penalty is starting from 0 rpm where you stacked it). Setting the viewport to "eye" the simulation viewport leans as you would riding the switchbacks. And I get a really good drubbing whenever I ride in VR...maybe it is a function of my overactive imagination.
The Catalyst is similar to what you'd see with a computrainer. It reintroduces Boring into indoor training for me; it is invaluable for doing controlled interval training, though.
I do not have experience in multiuser, but I have friends that swear by it. They will actually get up at 2am to race someone from half way around the world...
All of that said there are some serious caveats.
1.) It is difficult to get set up and get functional. Pay strict attention to the requirements of the computer that you'll be running it on. I bought a laptop to dedicate just to the device - the risk of screwing up the configuration is too great to do a lot of other things with the PC. I am running it on a Best Buy Special that I paid about $300 for - and the performance is very good, thank you.
2.) Especially the VR world puts a lot of load on the CPU. Depending on your setup, the extra heat from the workload can crash the PC before you get to the end of the workout. We suffered these mystery crashes until we put a fan directly on the PC and that cleared up the issue (Patti has the same setup as I do...)
3.) The experience is better with an LCD TV in the system. Just don't mount it too high - I put mine up a few inches above my normal line of sight to simulate looking up gradient. A long climb becomes even more of a suffer-fest. (We use a 32" El Cheapo from Fred Meyers. We switch the cable between laptops. Works fine.) Actually, the laptop screen works fine too.
4.) If you are looking at a used one, do not buy one with a power supply that has a serial number starting with "46...". They fail regularly, and are not repairable. And a new one costs $400-500. The newer fortius units start with a "49..." serial number. You can imagine how I found that out.
5.) The wattage power curve doesn't match a human power curve very well, and the wattage seems to be a rolling average rather than what you'll see from your powertap. I rode with a powertap on the Fortius early in the winter so I could see how they matched. Really, if you keep the Fortius calibrated (easy) the wattage matches pretty well between 200-300 watts. Because of the lag in computing wattage, I see much higher numbers on the Powertap versus the Fortius (I saw numbers in the 800 watt range on the powertap, but it is very very difficult for me to get the Fortius to go above 550). I think that I am not a smooth enough rider to get much more out of the device anyway, because at those power levels it gets kind of tippy. At the other end of the spectrum, you can be banging along at a very easy 100 watts and the Fortius will stubbornly say that you aren't working at all. Who rides below 100 watts, anyway?
6.) Unless you are deaf, you'll want to go to the Tacx forum and read about the fix for the noisy back roller. They will begin making a lot of racket and you will think that you've trashed your bottom bracket or the bearings in the motor brake, but follow the simple instructions for regluing the metal to the roller and you'll be back in low-volume bliss before you know it.
03-27-10, 01:27 PM
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Thanks for the comments and feedback, all.
Luker - especially appreciate your providing such detailed feedback. It gives me a much better idea of what to expect, and I think I'll pick one up next weekend. I need to figure out if the blessed thing works with a Mac or no (probably not), but I can always buy a spare laptop for it (and have it double as a file/archive server).
Most likely, I will pick the unit up next weekend
V.
Luker - especially appreciate your providing such detailed feedback. It gives me a much better idea of what to expect, and I think I'll pick one up next weekend. I need to figure out if the blessed thing works with a Mac or no (probably not), but I can always buy a spare laptop for it (and have it double as a file/archive server).
Most likely, I will pick the unit up next weekend
V.
03-27-10, 06:56 PM
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Make sure to browse here re: Mac usage...
https://forum.tacx.com/
https://forum.tacx.com/
03-28-10, 07:55 PM
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Thanks for the comments and feedback, all.
Luker - especially appreciate your providing such detailed feedback. It gives me a much better idea of what to expect, and I think I'll pick one up next weekend. I need to figure out if the blessed thing works with a Mac or no (probably not), but I can always buy a spare laptop for it (and have it double as a file/archive server).
Most likely, I will pick the unit up next weekend
V.
Luker - especially appreciate your providing such detailed feedback. It gives me a much better idea of what to expect, and I think I'll pick one up next weekend. I need to figure out if the blessed thing works with a Mac or no (probably not), but I can always buy a spare laptop for it (and have it double as a file/archive server).
Most likely, I will pick the unit up next weekend
V.
03-28-10, 08:19 PM
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How can a thread like this not have someone ask whether you had considered the computrainer? The CT rocks and, as I understand it, has a great reliability record. I'm gonna guess, given you're gig, that some minor price differences might not matter too much.
03-28-10, 08:41 PM
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the computrainer is great. I did kind of mention it above, in reference to the Tacx Catalyst software. It has the major advantage of being a turnkey system, so you don't run the risk of ruining a week getting your expensive trainer to work again...but it doesn't capture my imagination like the Tacx system does.
I watched the Tour on tv last summer and recognized some of the climbs, and knew what was coming next!
I watched the Tour on tv last summer and recognized some of the climbs, and knew what was coming next!
03-29-10, 01:36 AM
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Bostongarden - you are right, I am not too bothered about price differences (within reason), but my understanding was that the Computrainer doesnt do the same "Virtual Reality" as the TACX. In general, I am all in favor of turn-key/keeping it simple (last thing I want in life is fiddle around with computers and setup), but my understand is that the Computrainer doesnt give as "realistic" a riding experience?
Edit / add: Maybe I should expand upon what I want to do with the program.
I'd like to be able to do focused, power-based training indoors on it (intervals, TTs, tempo and base). However, instead of just blankly looking at a digital read-out on a power meter, I'd like to be able to do it while looking at a virtual course. I'd also like to be able to ride various "famous" rides on the trainer.
The main thing I am looking for with these VR rides is... well, realism. If I am climbing a 10% gradient, it should feel like I am climbing a 10% gradient. If I speed up, the video should speed up. IOW, what I do on the bike should be reflected on the video. I know that the TACX does this with their Real Life Videos - does the Computrainer?
And if the computer can generate automated race opponents for me, nothing like it!
V.
Edit / add: Maybe I should expand upon what I want to do with the program.
I'd like to be able to do focused, power-based training indoors on it (intervals, TTs, tempo and base). However, instead of just blankly looking at a digital read-out on a power meter, I'd like to be able to do it while looking at a virtual course. I'd also like to be able to ride various "famous" rides on the trainer.
The main thing I am looking for with these VR rides is... well, realism. If I am climbing a 10% gradient, it should feel like I am climbing a 10% gradient. If I speed up, the video should speed up. IOW, what I do on the bike should be reflected on the video. I know that the TACX does this with their Real Life Videos - does the Computrainer?
And if the computer can generate automated race opponents for me, nothing like it!
V.
Last edited by guadzilla; 03-29-10 at 04:45 AM.
03-29-10, 08:03 AM
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I live in snow country and have 2 bikes set up on trainers in my training/TV room. I have one bike on a Tacx Fortius trainer with about 10 Real Life Videos (hooked up to a big screen TV) and another bike on a Kurt Kinetic trainer with about 30 CTS and Spinervals DVD's. I basically alternate between the two systems every other day in the winter.
I use the regular trainer with the DVD's for shorter 1-2 hour interval sessions. The regular trainer is really better for higher intensity interval work (built better, more sturdy, etc.). This winter I did the CTS Power building session (12 week DVD program) which is excellent. You really couldn't do this well on the Tacx system.
I use the Tacx Fortius for longer 1- 5 hour aerobic / tempo sessions. I frequently do 3-5 hour rides with the real life videos which would be hard to do on the regular trainer. I think the real life videos are pretty realistic. I probably don't work quite as hard on these videos as I would on the actual ride but it is close. It keeps my interest for long periods of time (especially if I have something else on my 2nd TV). I do like the Ergovideos for harder efforts (they are great and quite difficult).
The Tacx system isn't perfect. The build quality is only average (not as good as the Kurt Kinetic). It requires basically a gaming computer to work well (cheaper computer = problems). The real life videos are pretty expensive and you need quite a few of them to keep it interesting. I got mine set up in about 20 minutes and haven't had any problems with it in 2 years. The system is pretty expensive.
If I could only pick one system, I would pick the Kurt Kinetic trainer and the DVD's because it is built better (will last a lifetime) and I get a better workout on the trainer. I am glad though that I have both systems.
I wasn't interested in the Computrainer because I wouldn't have any interest in chasing the little metal men around. I don't use the similiar feature on the Tacx Fortius. The real life videos are the real benefit of the Tacx system.
I use the regular trainer with the DVD's for shorter 1-2 hour interval sessions. The regular trainer is really better for higher intensity interval work (built better, more sturdy, etc.). This winter I did the CTS Power building session (12 week DVD program) which is excellent. You really couldn't do this well on the Tacx system.
I use the Tacx Fortius for longer 1- 5 hour aerobic / tempo sessions. I frequently do 3-5 hour rides with the real life videos which would be hard to do on the regular trainer. I think the real life videos are pretty realistic. I probably don't work quite as hard on these videos as I would on the actual ride but it is close. It keeps my interest for long periods of time (especially if I have something else on my 2nd TV). I do like the Ergovideos for harder efforts (they are great and quite difficult).
The Tacx system isn't perfect. The build quality is only average (not as good as the Kurt Kinetic). It requires basically a gaming computer to work well (cheaper computer = problems). The real life videos are pretty expensive and you need quite a few of them to keep it interesting. I got mine set up in about 20 minutes and haven't had any problems with it in 2 years. The system is pretty expensive.
If I could only pick one system, I would pick the Kurt Kinetic trainer and the DVD's because it is built better (will last a lifetime) and I get a better workout on the trainer. I am glad though that I have both systems.
I wasn't interested in the Computrainer because I wouldn't have any interest in chasing the little metal men around. I don't use the similiar feature on the Tacx Fortius. The real life videos are the real benefit of the Tacx system.
Last edited by jrobe; 03-29-10 at 08:38 AM.
04-01-10, 02:26 AM
#12
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Well, what has intrigued me about the Computrainer is that they too now offer VR rides, ala the Tacx Real Life Videos... although the Tacx has a lot nicer courses I am trying to find out the differences between the two, but havent had any luck so far.
Maybe I'll wait till I get to demo the Computrainer, and see how that works out. I dont think I'd ever be able to pull off even an hour on a regular trainer, however... simply unable to stay motivated enough.
V.
I am trying to find out the differences between the two, but havent had any luck so far. Maybe I'll wait till I get to demo the Computrainer, and see how that works out. I dont think I'd ever be able to pull off even an hour on a regular trainer, however... simply unable to stay motivated enough.
V.
