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Defective rim? or not

Old 09-16-19, 06:47 PM
  #1  
jideta
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Defective rim? or not

NDS


DS


front rim has a similar 'bump' also at the weld
Drive side spoke nearest the 'bump' is apparently bottomed out. Will not tighten anymore.
The rim is pretty true; look at the inside and opposite edges. Seems like something is wrong with the brake track.
Waddayathink?
Defective?
Commercially acceptable?
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Old 09-16-19, 07:26 PM
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You do have a bit of a hop. It is hard to discern exactly how much.

If the rim has a but and pin joint, then a little hop at the joint is common.
If the rim is welded and machined, then I think it should be able to be trued to not have a hop.

How is the tension on the spokes? A rough way to determine the tension is to ping the spokes. Is the spoke that is "bottomed out" tight or loose? What about the opposite NDS spokes?

I'm not sure of the tollerance for a hop. Somewhere between 1/2mm and 1mm, I think. A bit tighter tolerances for road bikes, a bit less for MTBs or kid's bikes.
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Old 09-16-19, 08:01 PM
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Rim width at various spots is 31.94-31.97 with some deviation.
Area of bump is 32.12-32.14.
Way less than a MM.

The DS spoke at the 'hop' is at 120kgm, all other DS are about 104.
Don't want to tighten any more as it feels close to stripping.

Front wheel measures about the same though the 'hop' appears smaller.

I've sent the video to the vendor.
I don't make too many fast, long decent, but my concern was pulsing when braking and the fact that I spent some cash on these rims.
I mean if they were like Alex or some eBay Alibaba rim I wouldn't be too concerned but they aren't.
I shouldn't even be questioning the quality of these rims.
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Old 09-16-19, 08:14 PM
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I don't think you mentioned the brand/model.

Velocity still uses butted/pinned joints.
Mavic, and many other brands use welded joints.

The measurement you really need is how far out of round the wheel actually is. Dial gauges on your truing stand, although you might be able to estimate with a simple marker.

You may or may not be able to feel pulsing brakes, often caused by a dented rim, or by the butt joint being offset slightly.

It is hard for us to tell what your feeling of the wheel will be like just by looking at the video.
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Old 09-16-19, 08:16 PM
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My guess is your wheel is within manufacturing tollerances for most brands, except perhaps top of the line (new) Campagnolo or Dura Ace or Similar.
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Old 09-16-19, 08:30 PM
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I can't tell if you have actually ridden these rims yet. If so then what is your subjective feel for consistent braking forces with a fixed lever pull amount? In other words is there an on road problem? Andy
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Old 09-16-19, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
My guess is your wheel is within manufacturing tollerances for most brands, except perhaps top of the line (new) Campagnolo or Dura Ace or Similar.

I was afraid you'd say that!

No, wheel has not been out on the road yet.
Waiting for vendor to get back to me.
Didn't want anyone to claim the 'flaws' were road damage or such.

Just built up some Belgium+ and didn't have to deal with this. In fact I just did some Kinlins too and wasn't faced with this.
Don't want to throw the company under the bus yet, but these rims cost as much as the HEDs and I don't think I should be even questioning these rims.
I believe they are ridable; I mean I would ride them.
Am I asking too much?
OCD?
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Old 09-16-19, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jideta View Post
OCD?
I was trying to figure out a kind way to say this. I bet the wheel will be just fine on the road.
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Old 09-17-19, 12:48 AM
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Being new to this wheel building thing, I wasn't sure where the lines are drawn.

Still, if I had paid say, $800 for this wheel set, would that be okay? As the wheel builder would I even let this out of the building?

Yeah it's ridable, but still...

The rims were $150 each.

I do see where you guys are coming from though. I suppose nothing is ever perfect.
As an 'artist' though, these rims would never fly. I'd be embarrassed to let them out of my studio. Dumpster bound.

At this point, I'm okay with whatever the vendor/manufacturer says.
I'll ride them and be happy.
Not for long though. I already got eyeballs some some carbon rims!
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Old 09-17-19, 06:32 PM
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Please tell us what kind of rims these are ?

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Old 09-17-19, 06:36 PM
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They are Aforce Al33 rims.
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Old 09-17-19, 07:13 PM
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If I were building that wheel, I'd back off the tight DS spoke tension to much closer to the rest and just live with the bump. A tight spoke is an issue that will almost certainly cause problems later. The bump? Only matters if you can feel it while riding and then, only if it matters to you. I've tuned out far worse wheels and gotten many good miles out of them. (In the old days of plugged tubular rims, that bump was the norm. So was the discontinuity of the casing and stitching of just about every tubular made at the valve.)

Ben
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Old 09-17-19, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jideta View Post
They are Aforce Al33 rims.
Hmmm, pretty impressive specs on the rims/wheels. But EXPENSIVE.

It does say welded joints, ceramic brake tracks.

Was this a new Kickstarter startup company from about 3 years ago? Do they have their own their own production facilities? Or, is this another one of those projects of grand-designs, but Chinese Imports?

You are measuring the hop in the actual rolled bead edge, and not just the brake track machining, right?

I agree with others (and my previously stated opinion). Overall, this probably won't make much difference.

However, it just seems to be low quality for a company marketing themselves as a premier manufacturer.

Keep with the company, noting the end product quality is just not acceptable for their marketing point. Perhaps they just had a lapse of attention to QA/QC.
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Old 09-17-19, 09:07 PM
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And I thought $80 retail cost on rims was high...

What was the draw to these rims?

"As an artist..." What does art have to do with a production product?

Sorry to sound so down on this situation but I see a few disconnects. The main issue I would focus on is the variation of the brake track width as that effects one's ability to modulate stopping power. Maybe these are the disk specific version? Andy (that last comment said with some tongue in cheek)
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Old 09-18-19, 12:39 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
If I were building that wheel, I'd back off the tight DS spoke tension to much closer to the rest and just live with the bump. A tight spoke is an issue that will almost certainly cause problems later. The bump? Only matters if you can feel it while riding and then, only if it matters to you. I've tuned out far worse wheels and gotten many good miles out of them. (In the old days of plugged tubular rims, that bump was the norm. So was the discontinuity of the casing and stitching of just about every tubular made at the valve.)

Ben

Thanks, I'll back off the spoke and just let the bump be.
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Old 09-18-19, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
And I thought $80 retail cost on rims was high...

What was the draw to these rims?

"As an artist..." What does art have to do with a production product?

Sorry to sound so down on this situation but I see a few disconnects. The main issue I would focus on is the variation of the brake track width as that effects one's ability to modulate stopping power. Maybe these are the disk specific version? Andy (that last comment said with some tongue in cheek)

So what exactly are you questioning here?
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Old 09-18-19, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Hmmm, pretty impressive specs on the rims/wheels. But EXPENSIVE.

It does say welded joints, ceramic brake tracks.

Was this a new Kickstarter startup company from about 3 years ago? Do they have their own their own production facilities? Or, is this another one of those projects of grand-designs, but Chinese Imports?

You are measuring the hop in the actual rolled bead edge, and not just the brake track machining, right?

I agree with others (and my previously stated opinion). Overall, this probably won't make much difference.

However, it just seems to be low quality for a company marketing themselves as a premier manufacturer.

Keep with the company, noting the end product quality is just not acceptable for their marketing point. Perhaps they just had a lapse of attention to QA/QC.

Yes measuring at the edge.
Also noticed that at the 'hop' the brake surface has an extra machined groove about inch wide near the outer edge.

I'm done with these rims unless the vendor/manufacturer gets back to me.
I'll ride them and probably have no problems; out of sight out of mind!
Mostly I'm just disappointed.
Shoulda gone Easton.
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Old 09-18-19, 02:07 AM
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just gonna live with it...
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Old 09-18-19, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jideta View Post
So what exactly are you questioning here?

Your expectations and motivations. I work bike retail (for 46 years) and have tried to guide my customers in their dreams WRT what's really going on. When I see such an expensive choice for a little known item my red flags go up the pole. For me to have suggested these rims I would have wanted previous experience with them. Why? Because being the guy you will come back to I want to make sure I can give you the customer service anyone deserves. With no knowledge about a product, beyond the one sided marketing fluff and no relationship with the supplier/manufacturer, how do I do this and not risk loosing the shop's $? So I'm trying to both learn about your motivations and risk level.

My comment about art comes from my personal association with those who create art and the many discussions about art VS craft VS fashion. The subject of when an artist knows they are finished with the piece has been a topic I am very interested in. I build frames as a hobby (did the pro thing briefly a couple of times) and I deal with this same issue, when is the frame done. Is it when I'm happy or when someone else will approve of it? In my building this is further complicated by my painter's job and their standards. Again a learning moment for me, and maybe you and others who read this. My replies to many threads on this forum are often for the masses as well as the OP. Andy
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Old 09-18-19, 03:34 PM
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My motivation was that I wanted to build a nice wheel set.
My expectation was based upon another high end rim I built (HED) and that I would not have any problems with the build/components. The spokes are CXrays and the hubs are T11s.

The AForce has been around for a few years. Most of the reviews I read were glowing. Never read anything really negative about them.
I wanted a wider/taller rim so at 32mm tall and 24mm wide these fit the bill. My other choice was Easton R90s.

Art is so subjective its difficult to explain. Everyone has their own take.
My comment was based upon the craftsman as an artist. Eventually the craftsman raises the level of his craft so high it becomes art.

As the craftsman/artist, you decide when it's done. I suppose this comes by experience; or maybe just a feeling.
As a ceramic artist all my work is signed so it's a matter of me not wanting work with my name on it floating around out there that doesn't meet my standards.
Everyone's standards are different.
For me, it's finished when you are proud to hand it over to someone else.
Or again for me, when it's so freakin good you don't want to hand it over to someone else!
I still have some work around here that I felt like no one would appreciate but me.
On the other hand, I still have work around here that I made only for my use that aren't good enough to leave the apartment.

As far as the wheel set goes, if I were, and I guess in this case I am, the wheel builder, would I let this out of my shop and onto a customers bicycle? In this case, no. Honestly I got a hard time putting them on my bicycle since I put so much time in getting my ride just right.
If you are doing this commercially, eventually your success will be based upon what your standards are.

I've been mulling over these wheels for a couple of days now.
Vendor has gone dark on me so I guess I'm on my own.
I'm seriously thinking about scrapping these wheels; rebuilding them on some DT350s I got and just dumping them on CL.
I 'made' these wheels, although I had no control over the components. If I part them out, they are no longer 'mine.' Does that make sense? Give you an idea of how I think as an artist?
I can visualize that 'hop' in my mind going round and round and round.

Here's the thing about art: the artist is going to see things that 99.99999% of folks are going to miss. You know it 's there. Do you let it out of your shop?
If I were doing this commercially, I would like to be known as the wheel builder who only sells wheels that are as close to perfect as I can get them.
Not the dude who sells wheels that look they came out of the 2nds bin.
Then again to someone else, these wheels will be perfect!
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Old 09-18-19, 04:03 PM
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Can you take a still shot of the rim at the joint? I still think the issue would be much less noticeable in service, but if there's a clear discontinuity at the joint, perhaps some pressure can be put on the vendor. I'm not a perfectionist, but I would expect something close to it for $150.
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Old 09-18-19, 04:12 PM
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Is the hop at a spoke hole or exactly opposite the valve hole (between spokes)? Are you sure it is at the weld?

I've seen a few videos of rim prodution, but usually leaving out a couple of critical steps.

If I was making the rims, there would probably be a few steps including welding. Rough machining, anealing, ring rolling, hardening, ring rolling again, then final machining & drilling (should be fine after hardening).

My guess is they tried to simplify a few steps in the process, which created rims that were close, but not perfect.

Lots of reports of things like burrs which should have been taken out during manufacturing, but weren't.

The wheels should roll OK, but you need to get back to the company that the final quality just isn't acceptable with their price/marketing.
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Old 09-18-19, 07:01 PM
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After seeing the video, I would send them back for a refund of my money. I have built wheels of far cheaper prices that were of better quality than those. It is just my opinion, but that hop was from a bad weld. Smiles, MH
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Old 09-18-19, 07:27 PM
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Haven't heard from the vendor since Monday when I sent the videos.
I'll send the video off to AForce if anything just to let them know this is out there.
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Old 09-18-19, 08:00 PM
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I'd be pretty upset if I'd paid that much for a pair of rims with that result.
Hopefully, you paid for them with a credit card or PayPal. Either way, if the seller has gone dark, file a claim.
That will get their attention.
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