Eric F 

What does that have to do with cycling?

EDIT: If you don't believe bike racers are athletes, it would seem that your understanding about bike racers is on par with your understanding of bike racing. You have a lot to learn about both.

shelbyfv

Now I'm truly confused. If cycling doesn't require athleticism or skill, seems almost anyone who is interested could be competent. I think showing up on BF would be evidence of interest but it's obvious cycling competence doesn't always follow.

Koyote

It helps if you know how to sit on a bike saddle.

Eric F 

It's the same as a beach chair, right?

Koyote

I guess I’m just not very thoughtful. I’ve been riding bikes for about 55 years – shoot, I guess it’s longer than that now – and I’ve never once had to think about where to put my ass.

Eric F 

I'm betting no one else wants to think about where you put your ass, either

indyfabz

Cut off its food supply.

diphthong

to be fair, the grand tours (gt's) have cut back a little on some of the mileage. the vuelta, markedly, tends to go for shorter, harder stages. the tour de france waffles between semi-humane and ridiculous now vs simply ridiculous in the past and the giro seems to go with slightly shorter stages but still little consideration for cyclist well-being/safety on any given stage.

livedarklions

​​​​​​Do you consider asking totally irrelevant and inept rhetorical questions to be an intellectual debate skill?

​​​​​You're completely missing the point, the skill is both in their ability to ride at a very high level AND to sustain that ability over weeks of riding under conditions you couldn't handle for an hour.

BTW, are you claiming professional boxers aren't actually athetes because anyone can throw a punch?

Trakhak

Favorite Welk quote, explaining to a newly hired guitar player how to fit in on stage:

"Look like you're having fun. But don't."

indyfabz

We stayed in Strasburg during a supported ride around ND. The homestead Welk grew up on is preserved as a museum. The house was made out of sod and paneled. We got a tour from a woman who built up the announcement that she was a niece of his.

Polaris OBark

Nope.

But punching you in the face might qualify as a team sport.

<--- winkie of absolution

veganbikes

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Now I know what you are thinking, isn't this just a timeshare, I saw an article on AskJeeves saying they were bad, well my friend this is not a timeshare. This is a true investment into your future, vacation to end all vacations but instead of having to pay for it all year long and deal with all the upkeep and maintenance when you aren't using it you share that with a few other people and they also get to use it. So you get all the benefits of that mansionette you have always dreamed of without being Bill Gates or Elon Musk. They teach you in school that sharing is caring well if you really cared you would invest in your future at the Del Boca Vista Dream Vacation Platinum Elite Club where sharing isn't just polite it is part of the dream.

Camilo

I came away with the same opinion after reading this, Hamilton's and what others have written. If you wanted to be a pro cyclist, you doped. If you didn't want to dope, get a different profession. A choice I'm glad I never had to make. I can understand why people are against doping, period. But their criticism is rightly directed at the entire sport. They are naive if they think that a single non-doper could have any success or even make a team.

Camilo

I'll disagree only in a detail, wear on the body. Cycling certainly is 3 weeks of consecutive marathons in terms of dedication, intelligence (nutrition, recovery, etc.), training and fitness. But there's no way one could do anything close to that running. Too much stress on the bones and joints. Hiking, even strenuous hiking and mountaineering, yes, but not running. Don't know about swimming. Cycling applies the wheel for less stress on the joints and bones.

Koyote

I think the perception is a bit slanted by the fact that we're only get the dopers' side of the story. I'm betting that there were some cyclists who had to "get a different profession," or who simply didn't thrive in the pro peloton, because they didn't cheat. If one of those guys wrote a book about how much that sucked, about how it felt to work so hard and still get beat by cheaters, then maybe people like Hincapie and Hamilton wouldn't seem as sympathetic.

rsbob 

Good point. The point Hincapie and Hamilton made was that there was no way possible one could compete without doping. They were champions in their own right but when you can only make the grupetto and are only concerned about beating the time cutoffs while killing yourself while people they knew were far less athletically blessed and dedicated than them were now regularly cleaning their clocks, the choice was quit or give up their dreams. There may have been principled riders that quit because they refused to dope but it was none of the top competitors. If you find a book that chronicles a disillusioned rider that was competitive prior to doping entered the sport, I would like to read it.

Koyote

Yes, that is the crux of their argument. By arguing that everyone in the pro peloton was doping, they are trying to recast themselves not as cheaters, but as victims -- 'we had to do it!'

These guys are all so self-serving and manipulative.

CAT7RDR

Why is the GC leader held in higher regard than the total points winner?
This has always puzzled me. I would think it is more difficult to win more individual stages than overall time?

BillyD

Pfft, that never happens around here, the flame is too alluring for the moths to ignore.

big john

Points are for sprinters. A racer could win several stages and have just one bad day and be completely out of the GC. The GC requires staying near the top every day, at least staying close to the other GC contenders.

The biggest prize is for the GC.

Iride01 

The points classification and other things going on in the Tours and Grand Tours are other competitions within the races that were added at later dates. The GC competition stems from the original historical way to win the race which essentially is the first one to the finish line thousands of miles later is the winner. But this comes from the days when those races went on 24 hours a day non-stop until someone finally crossed that finish line.

Today they don't race all day and all night long. So the race is broken down into stages and times determined and added up for all the stages. In fact, a cyclist can actually win the GC for the race and never win a stage. And it's been done many times.

As mentioned, the points competition is generally something sprinters are interested in. And it is one of the newer competitions added to the Tours and Grand Tours. It's not often that the GC person can also be the points leader. Individual cyclists and their team decide who is going for which competition. Some teams have the talent on them to have several going for multiple things. Other's might have only the talent for GC or for just points. And sometimes that goal for the team changes as crashes or sickness happen and riders have to drop out.

Jughed

What's already been said and:
-GC riders need to be strong in every phase of the race. They typically finish just behind the sprinters, and some (like the Lance we are not allowed to mention) had decent sprints but kept themselves safe from the mayhem. They can climb with or better than the people going for the KOM points competitions. They can TT with or better than the best TT specialists.

The GC guy may finish 5 seconds behind the sprinter on a flat stage, but the sprinter may lose and hour on a single mountain stage. Sometimes the sprint point leader can't even make the time cuts on the mountain stages and gets booted from the tour.

Eric F 

At the heart of it, the TDF is a race, starting with Stage 1 (or prologue), and finishing in Paris. The rider who finishes first is the winner. In the format of a stage race, finishing first means lowest overall time (GC).

Although the Points Classification winner will probably win at least one stage, it's possible to win that overall competition without a stage win (Erik Zabel, for example). There are points awarded for the stage finish, as well as at intermediate sprint points along the route of each stage.

Likewise, the Mountain Classification is determined by points at the summit of categorized climbs along the route. Climb classifications are 1 (most difficult) - 4 (least difficult), and HC ("hors categorie" - beyond category). Theoretically, this award goes to the best climber, but in reality, it generally goes to a good climber who is not a top GC contender.

Jughed

You are making the athlete take the brunt of the blame.

Grand scheme of things - the team managers facilitated and probably mandated it, the team sponsors ultimately paid for it - and you can't tell me they didn't know... you can't tell me the UCI didn't know, well you can, but I won't believe it.

People on all levels of the sport, from management to doctors, to team members, to the riders to the bike mechanics not only knew - participated in this "cheating". All of them. Team cooks used to hold night watch to make sure the doped athlete didn't die.

And every sport, pro - college - amateur - Olympic - ALL of them were ripe with doping during that time. And the athlete was just the end user.