Stop? Signs…
08-06-23, 08:33 AM
#1
NotaNewbie
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Stop? Signs…
In my last few rides I have witnessed the end of the Stop Sign. No slowing, no stopping, just straight running them. I had several close calls in my first mile today. Just straight blowing thru from a residential street to a major thoroughfare. Natural selection will eventually take care of this but at what cost. Idiots just slamming into Joe Public on his way to wherever. Stoplights in my area don’t seem to influence these folks either. They fly thru them off the freeway and onto the local streets, not even slowing down. Head on a swivel and don’t assume anything anymore. We are nothing but Pins in the Bowlerama of the Road.
( From the former City of Anaheim, Orange County Ca.)
( From the former City of Anaheim, Orange County Ca.)
Last edited by Homebrew01; 08-06-23 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Removed political content
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08-06-23, 08:37 AM
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Man, tough day.
08-06-23, 08:41 AM
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Don't get me started. The total disregard so many drivers have for the stop signs in my neighbor hood is incredible. I have been stopped, in my car only to have someone approach from another direction and just blow right through. We have attempted to engage our local PD but this issue is so low on their list you should just be lucky they listened to you on the phone. One of the things that really sticks out for me is that I live next to a school and I see all too many parents driving their kids to school while blowing through the stop signs. I mean, what kind of message are you sending your kid?
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08-06-23, 08:49 AM
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Please don't divert into politics. Thanks
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08-06-23, 09:09 AM
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Well no wonder. They are in a lot of places being used SOLELY to punish cars, NIMBY. 6 or 8 blocks in a row sometimes. After 3 I just ignore them.
With no right on red. WTF does that help.???
Then they pile in boa constrictors and speed bumps for clamming. No wonder everybody is fricking mad.
EVERY new neighborhood road is being stupidly narrowed, to make them safer?? LOL Can't open your car door on them.
Oh BTW, I NEVER come to a complete stop. LOL.
With no right on red. WTF does that help.???
Then they pile in boa constrictors and speed bumps for clamming. No wonder everybody is fricking mad.
EVERY new neighborhood road is being stupidly narrowed, to make them safer?? LOL Can't open your car door on them.
Oh BTW, I NEVER come to a complete stop. LOL.
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 08-06-23 at 09:28 AM.
08-06-23, 09:28 AM
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The documentary Chimp Empire is super interesting; chimps are like humans with our layer of civilization stripped away. People do things for reasons, probably we don't actually know why.
Stop sign blowing guy is acting out for social reasons. You noticed, which was possibly the point.
Iirc, Carl Sagen made similar observations in one of his books.
Stop sign blowing guy is acting out for social reasons. You noticed, which was possibly the point.
Iirc, Carl Sagen made similar observations in one of his books.
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08-06-23, 09:30 AM
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You've just now noticed this?
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08-06-23, 09:34 AM
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Yeah, you need to stop doing that.
08-06-23, 09:41 AM
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While there are certainly dumb and thoughtless people, I think very few actually have a death wish and drive with reckless abandon. More often, I think folks are doing risk assessment based on things they think they know, like typical pedestrian activity, traffic volume, time of day, etc., and if they think it’s safe to blow a stop, they might. Often, people overestimate their own ability to assess situations, too.
I did traffic flow studies in grad school, and it’s certainly true that city planners have a macro perspective on traffic patterns whereas drivers mostly have a much narrower perspective on the matter, but that doesn’t mean all planning decisions are good. I think things like ideological perspectives can take precedence over more pragmatic decision-making sometimes, for better or for worse depending on one’s perspective.
It’s complicated, anyway, and I have no good answers. I just hope everyone is careful doing whatever it is that they decide to do. I’ve driven cars, motorcycles, and bicycles in countries where there seem to be virtually no rules on the road, so I know that strict control is not the only way to go; chaos has it’s own way of working out, too.
08-06-23, 09:55 AM
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What a bizarre idea ... stop signs are erected to "punish" cars.
Worse still, it comes from a cyclist.
Stop signs are actually to Aid traffic flow, because at a lot of intersections, drivers will just try to "take the lane." Nothing snarls traffic like a multi--car pile-up caused by four tail-gaters behind a pair of "I never stop" idiots screaming "I got here first!"
Also (and this is where it pertains to cyclists) The Road Is for Everyone, not just cars and drivers. In small dense neighborhoods, people might want to feel, i don't know ... safe to actually walk on their streets, or to let their children play there, and with selfish buttholes screaming by and refusing to pay attention ("I never fully stop") the incidence of car/pedestrian collisions goes up.
Traffic inhibitors give drivers a chance to see the kids running in front of cars, or playing on the sidewalk, or cycling, or just out walking .... and Pedestrians Have the Right of Way. But people who cannot comprehend the need for stop signs, probably cannot understand the rights of pedestrians ... I guess pedestrians only walk on the street to punish drivers, right?
You know where there are fewer stop signs? In neighborhoods where there have been fewer accidents. And when new neighborhoods are built with lots of stop signs, it is because butthole drivers have run over so many pedestrians in other neighborhoods.
I do love it when two "I never fully stop" guys come to the same intersection at the same time, though .....
Worse still, it comes from a cyclist.
Stop signs are actually to Aid traffic flow, because at a lot of intersections, drivers will just try to "take the lane." Nothing snarls traffic like a multi--car pile-up caused by four tail-gaters behind a pair of "I never stop" idiots screaming "I got here first!"
Also (and this is where it pertains to cyclists) The Road Is for Everyone, not just cars and drivers. In small dense neighborhoods, people might want to feel, i don't know ... safe to actually walk on their streets, or to let their children play there, and with selfish buttholes screaming by and refusing to pay attention ("I never fully stop") the incidence of car/pedestrian collisions goes up.
Traffic inhibitors give drivers a chance to see the kids running in front of cars, or playing on the sidewalk, or cycling, or just out walking .... and Pedestrians Have the Right of Way. But people who cannot comprehend the need for stop signs, probably cannot understand the rights of pedestrians ... I guess pedestrians only walk on the street to punish drivers, right?
You know where there are fewer stop signs? In neighborhoods where there have been fewer accidents. And when new neighborhoods are built with lots of stop signs, it is because butthole drivers have run over so many pedestrians in other neighborhoods.
I do love it when two "I never fully stop" guys come to the same intersection at the same time, though .....
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08-06-23, 10:41 AM
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Reminds me of the time years ago when I was canvassing our neighborhood trying to gain support for a local rail to trail conversion. One of my older neighbors stated he was against the trail because he didn't want a bunch of cyclists stopping to pee in his yard.....because that is what he did when he was a cyclist.
08-06-23, 02:06 PM
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As a traffic engineer, I agree that STOP signs are overused in the US. In many cases, the decision is not technical, but political, as many political decisionmakers such as councilmembers and supervisory boards seem to think that installing a STOP sign will result in 100% compliance and a high reduction in crashes and conflicts.
On the engineering side, the draft of the new edition of the MUTCD (the national standard for signs, markings, signals, and other traffic control devices) proposes to rewrite the sections on intersection traffic control and start with a discussion of how the least restrictive control is generally the best, and then proceed into standards and guidance on YIELD signs, STOP signs, multi-way stops, and other control strategies. But if a professional's political higher-ups say "put it in anyway", all this good technical guidance may not be very effective.
The critical safety behavior at an intersection isn't stopping - it's yielding; e.g. proceeding with due care and being ready to stop if a conflicting vehicle is present (if you don't have the right of way). Many road users (including cyclists) who slow, look, and are ready to immediately yield at a stop-signed approach are complying with the spirit of the control, if not to the letter of the law. "Idaho stop" laws recognize this, even if it's an imperfect solution. The far bigger problem is that routine disregard for stop signs by road users (again very much including cyclists) habituates the user into proceeding through intersections without expecting to be ready to yield or stop, which can create a significant problem at those locations where a full stop truly is warranted. I think many of us have seen packs of riders not even touch their brakes flying through a stop-signed approach - not really a good situation.
On the engineering side, the draft of the new edition of the MUTCD (the national standard for signs, markings, signals, and other traffic control devices) proposes to rewrite the sections on intersection traffic control and start with a discussion of how the least restrictive control is generally the best, and then proceed into standards and guidance on YIELD signs, STOP signs, multi-way stops, and other control strategies. But if a professional's political higher-ups say "put it in anyway", all this good technical guidance may not be very effective.
The critical safety behavior at an intersection isn't stopping - it's yielding; e.g. proceeding with due care and being ready to stop if a conflicting vehicle is present (if you don't have the right of way). Many road users (including cyclists) who slow, look, and are ready to immediately yield at a stop-signed approach are complying with the spirit of the control, if not to the letter of the law. "Idaho stop" laws recognize this, even if it's an imperfect solution. The far bigger problem is that routine disregard for stop signs by road users (again very much including cyclists) habituates the user into proceeding through intersections without expecting to be ready to yield or stop, which can create a significant problem at those locations where a full stop truly is warranted. I think many of us have seen packs of riders not even touch their brakes flying through a stop-signed approach - not really a good situation.
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08-06-23, 02:23 PM
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I ride usually with 3 or 4 other guys "of a certain age".
We have had others join us off and on over the years, several we stopped inviting because of such dangerous behavior and not responding to education. Aside from the risk to themselves, moving at 15-20 mph protected by Lycra, they piss off drivers who then extrapolate that pissedness to all cyclists.
We have had others join us off and on over the years, several we stopped inviting because of such dangerous behavior and not responding to education. Aside from the risk to themselves, moving at 15-20 mph protected by Lycra, they piss off drivers who then extrapolate that pissedness to all cyclists.
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08-06-23, 03:02 PM
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There are plenty of videos showing drivers treating stop signs as, at best, a yield. It's infuriating because the same drivers point at bicyclists as being scofflaws for doing the same thing. Just a couple days ago, one of the guys in my group had some work done on his car. He picked it up, and 200 yards down the road someone blew a red light, t-boned him, and totaled his car. Our first question when we heard: Was his bike on the back?
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08-06-23, 03:40 PM
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Around where I live drivers are pretty good at stopping at 4 way stops. Although I will confess I am guilty of rolling through 4 way stops on my bike or when driving my truck, as long as there is no traffic and it's safe to do so.
08-06-23, 04:16 PM
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I was coming to a four way stop when a cyclist disregarded the stop sign. She didn't see me. I was surprised she didn't glance to the right or left. Perhaps she didn't see the sign.
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08-06-23, 04:27 PM
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If you live long enough retire to a retirement community, 5' to 8' bike lanes and everyone stops or just barely rolls a stop sign.
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08-06-23, 05:00 PM
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As a traffic engineer, I agree that STOP signs are overused in the US. In many cases, the decision is not technical, but political, as many political decisionmakers such as councilmembers and supervisory boards (and their vocal constituents) seem to think that installing a STOP sign will result in 100% compliance and a high reduction in crashes and conflicts.
On the engineering side, the draft of the new edition of the MUTCD (the national standard for signs, markings, signals, and other traffic control devices) proposes to rewrite the sections on intersection traffic control and start with a discussion of how the least restrictive control is generally the best, and then proceed into standards and guidance on YIELD signs, STOP signs, multi-way stops, and other control strategies. But if a professional's political higher-ups say "put it in anyway", all this good technical guidance may not be very effective.
The critical safety behavior at an intersection isn't stopping - it's yielding; e.g. proceeding with due care and being ready to stop if a conflicting vehicle is present (if you don't have the right of way). Many road users (including cyclists) who slow, look, and are ready to immediately yield at a stop-signed approach are complying with the spirit of the control, if not to the letter of the law. "Idaho stop" laws recognize this, even if it's an imperfect solution. The far bigger problem is that routine disregard for stop signs by road users (again very much including cyclists) habituates the user into proceeding through intersections without expecting to be ready to yield or stop, which can create a significant problem at those locations where a full stop truly is warranted. I think many of us have seen packs of riders not even touch their brakes flying through a stop-signed approach - not really a good situation.
On the engineering side, the draft of the new edition of the MUTCD (the national standard for signs, markings, signals, and other traffic control devices) proposes to rewrite the sections on intersection traffic control and start with a discussion of how the least restrictive control is generally the best, and then proceed into standards and guidance on YIELD signs, STOP signs, multi-way stops, and other control strategies. But if a professional's political higher-ups say "put it in anyway", all this good technical guidance may not be very effective.
The critical safety behavior at an intersection isn't stopping - it's yielding; e.g. proceeding with due care and being ready to stop if a conflicting vehicle is present (if you don't have the right of way). Many road users (including cyclists) who slow, look, and are ready to immediately yield at a stop-signed approach are complying with the spirit of the control, if not to the letter of the law. "Idaho stop" laws recognize this, even if it's an imperfect solution. The far bigger problem is that routine disregard for stop signs by road users (again very much including cyclists) habituates the user into proceeding through intersections without expecting to be ready to yield or stop, which can create a significant problem at those locations where a full stop truly is warranted. I think many of us have seen packs of riders not even touch their brakes flying through a stop-signed approach - not really a good situation.
....
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08-06-23, 05:30 PM
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They're doing a study at the local university (where my club meets for their Saturday rides) because they have a ton of pedestrians hit on this street that has 10 stop signs (I counted them) in a half mile. Funny thing is, the 11th crosswalk on that stretch has no stop, but rather flashing lights that activate when someone passes through the sensors on either side. I'm eagerly waiting to see what they determine.
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08-06-23, 05:33 PM
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08-06-23, 05:53 PM
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yes, sometimes people roll through them. i do too if there is nobody else yet at the intersection or at a point where they might blow through it while i'm in it. but of the handful of close calls i've had, only one has ever been related to a vehicle at a stop sign or red light - and it was a red light they just completely blew through at 30+
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08-06-23, 05:55 PM
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They're doing a study at the local university (where my club meets for their Saturday rides) because they have a ton of pedestrians hit on this street that has 10 stop signs (I counted them) in a half mile. Funny thing is, the 11th crosswalk on that stretch has no stop, but rather flashing lights that activate when someone passes through the sensors on either side. I'm eagerly waiting to see what they determine.
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