Any really good intervals programs for Criteriums
09-08-10, 08:08 AM
#26
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Grolby -
thanks for the input. I do wonder if there is something to "picking" your races. And also - is there anything different in a CAT 4/5 race (CAT 4 in Colorado, as this is an ACA State) which make it harder for lighter, less powerful riders to win most crit races?
Does team strategy or longer distance make it harder for larger riders to push it until the final sprint? My impression from others is that the CAT 4 races always come down to final sprints? Why is this the impression? And if this is the case, does this not benefit certain riders over others?
thanks for the input. I do wonder if there is something to "picking" your races. And also - is there anything different in a CAT 4/5 race (CAT 4 in Colorado, as this is an ACA State) which make it harder for lighter, less powerful riders to win most crit races?
Does team strategy or longer distance make it harder for larger riders to push it until the final sprint? My impression from others is that the CAT 4 races always come down to final sprints? Why is this the impression? And if this is the case, does this not benefit certain riders over others?
But (and not to sound all Mr. Miyagi), there are more ways to win crits than just waiting for a field sprint or out of a breakaway. CDR wrote a blog post a couple years back on just one strategy you might employ. Waterrockets' kilo attacks are yet another strategy.
Besides, think about it - if Cat 4 fields chase anything that tries to break away, they're going to get tired. Take advantage of that! Cat 4s recover from the chasing by slowing down when there's no break up the road. Don't allow that. Like I said, if you're a stronger rider than these guys, with better endurance, prove it by making the race hard. Saying you hate crits because you're not a sprinter is defeatist, and tactically narrow-minded.
Also, what MDcatV said about picking races - it's really silly to do so at this stage. Just do whatever and as many races as you can.
Last edited by grolby; 09-08-10 at 08:12 AM.
09-08-10, 08:26 AM
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I've been riding and racing just a bit longer than that.
"Base" is a term from periodization. Friel's book says flat out that the body isn't ready for periodization until it has a certain fitness level, usually achieved over the course of two or three seasons. True base fitness is built up over the period of years; it's not done in a mere few months. The "base" that everyone talks about is simply a period of time in the periodization schedule where the already relatively fit rider rides long, relatively slow, miles to prepare the body for more intense training later.
The new rider just needs to get hours on the bike, both at low intensity on long rides to learn what it's like to be in the saddle for hours at a time, and at very very high intensity during intervals (but skip the short 30 sec-3 minute anaerobic intervals at this time; again, on Friel's advice - those just will lead to injuries and burnout in newer racers) to know what it's like to go hard. The new rider should start the training plan in December and learn how to ride 2x20 minute intervals twice a week at maximum sustained power over both intervals (IOW, both intervals are done at the same power level). If you don't have a powermeter, use a trainer, put a rear wheel speed sensor on your bike, and use speed as your guide (speed has a direct relationship to power on a trainer). These long intervals are very important for the new racer. Most recreational riders have endurance, but they lack the experience pushing the limits of their body. Intervals give them this experience.
I think of my training like the process of sharpening a knife. A recreational rider (I was one once, obviously) is a metal blank. To transition to a racer and start putting an edge to the metal blank, you start out with a course file (hours on the bike and threshold intervals). After you have an outline of an edge (end of your first full season of racing), you move onto a finer file and the course stone; that is, you start integrating the rough outline of a periodization plan. Finally you have an edge and you start the normal (yearly) sharpening progression of medium stone to fine stone to sharpening steel: full periodization. Periodization is the seasonal sharpening of an already sharp knife - you start the season with a medium stone and work your way up to a sharpening steel just before your peak. Starting your racing career with a course file and progressing deliberately to a periodization cycle will put an even, well shaped edge on the blade that will last over years of periodized sharpening cycles. Skipping over the early parts will make the edge uneven and rounded; you can put an edge on it every year, but it won't be consistent over the whole blade, it won't be as sharp as it could be, and it'll dull quickly with use.
And now I've stretched the analogy as far as it goes
.
Anyway, this is what has worked for me over the last three years. I started by just doing a lot of 2x20min intervals, along with a lot of just plain riding during the winter for the first couple years. The first year, the intervals schedule was not terribly steady; it got better in the second year. This last season (my third season) was my best; I did it with only the rough form of periodization with a winter of pure base, threshold intervals in the spring, and then spent the rest of the season racing my way into a fairly high level of fitness. I raced everything from hilly road races to time trials to crits to track. I gained tremendous insight into my strengths and weaknesses this year. There was never a time when I burned out; if I started to feel ragged, I took 4 or 5 days off and my attitude was looking up again with no loss of fitness. Next year will include more aspects of periodization and hopefully more results. I'm an amateur; I got into this sport too late in life to become anything but that, so to me, the yearly progression of training and fitness is part of the appeal of bike racing.
"Base" is a term from periodization. Friel's book says flat out that the body isn't ready for periodization until it has a certain fitness level, usually achieved over the course of two or three seasons. True base fitness is built up over the period of years; it's not done in a mere few months. The "base" that everyone talks about is simply a period of time in the periodization schedule where the already relatively fit rider rides long, relatively slow, miles to prepare the body for more intense training later.
The new rider just needs to get hours on the bike, both at low intensity on long rides to learn what it's like to be in the saddle for hours at a time, and at very very high intensity during intervals (but skip the short 30 sec-3 minute anaerobic intervals at this time; again, on Friel's advice - those just will lead to injuries and burnout in newer racers) to know what it's like to go hard. The new rider should start the training plan in December and learn how to ride 2x20 minute intervals twice a week at maximum sustained power over both intervals (IOW, both intervals are done at the same power level). If you don't have a powermeter, use a trainer, put a rear wheel speed sensor on your bike, and use speed as your guide (speed has a direct relationship to power on a trainer). These long intervals are very important for the new racer. Most recreational riders have endurance, but they lack the experience pushing the limits of their body. Intervals give them this experience.
I think of my training like the process of sharpening a knife. A recreational rider (I was one once, obviously) is a metal blank. To transition to a racer and start putting an edge to the metal blank, you start out with a course file (hours on the bike and threshold intervals). After you have an outline of an edge (end of your first full season of racing), you move onto a finer file and the course stone; that is, you start integrating the rough outline of a periodization plan. Finally you have an edge and you start the normal (yearly) sharpening progression of medium stone to fine stone to sharpening steel: full periodization. Periodization is the seasonal sharpening of an already sharp knife - you start the season with a medium stone and work your way up to a sharpening steel just before your peak. Starting your racing career with a course file and progressing deliberately to a periodization cycle will put an even, well shaped edge on the blade that will last over years of periodized sharpening cycles. Skipping over the early parts will make the edge uneven and rounded; you can put an edge on it every year, but it won't be consistent over the whole blade, it won't be as sharp as it could be, and it'll dull quickly with use.
And now I've stretched the analogy as far as it goes
. Anyway, this is what has worked for me over the last three years. I started by just doing a lot of 2x20min intervals, along with a lot of just plain riding during the winter for the first couple years. The first year, the intervals schedule was not terribly steady; it got better in the second year. This last season (my third season) was my best; I did it with only the rough form of periodization with a winter of pure base, threshold intervals in the spring, and then spent the rest of the season racing my way into a fairly high level of fitness. I raced everything from hilly road races to time trials to crits to track. I gained tremendous insight into my strengths and weaknesses this year. There was never a time when I burned out; if I started to feel ragged, I took 4 or 5 days off and my attitude was looking up again with no loss of fitness. Next year will include more aspects of periodization and hopefully more results. I'm an amateur; I got into this sport too late in life to become anything but that, so to me, the yearly progression of training and fitness is part of the appeal of bike racing.
I'm also a new rider ( bought my first bike ever last August ) and have been riding and racing since. I kind of dove head first into this as I was improving at a pretty decent rate, and felt burn out a few times this season. A few days off the bike and I was good to go. I recently came off of a forced 6 day break due to burn out once again, and even some slight tendonitus due to the severe increase and intensity in my training and overall riding.
I think that I'm going to try to stick to 2x20's and throw in the occasional shorter interval day every week, and actually try to decrease my total time on the bike as I feel that it's just been too much for someone just getting into the sport.
Thanks again, and sorry to hijack the thread ( if I did ). Hopefully my experiences can help the OP.
09-08-10, 08:52 AM
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grolby, do you enjoy all types of races equally, or do you prefer certain types over others?
09-08-10, 10:00 AM
#29
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I certainly prefer some races to others. There's a world of difference between that and actively disliking the races that are less favorable for me. Like I said, I'm sure that the fact that I've always enjoyed racing crits has me a bit biased. All the same, the major reasons for disliking crits that I hear from the Cat 5 and 4 riders I know who avoid or dislike them seem to be a matter of skills and attitude: "They're sketchy." "I'm not a sprinter." Both are weaknesses to be addressed, IMO. Perhaps that's unfair. I don't think it really is, though.
09-08-10, 10:39 AM
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I certainly prefer some races to others. There's a world of difference between that and actively disliking the races that are less favorable for me. Like I said, I'm sure that the fact that I've always enjoyed racing crits has me a bit biased. All the same, the major reasons for disliking crits that I hear from the Cat 5 and 4 riders I know who avoid or dislike them seem to be a matter of skills and attitude: "They're sketchy." "I'm not a sprinter." Both are weaknesses to be addressed, IMO. Perhaps that's unfair. I don't think it really is, though.
09-08-10, 10:58 AM
#31
Senior Member
the best crit racers i know have a well rounded training program and are competent at handling their bikes in pack situations, moving through a pack, and cornering without wasting alot of energy. i've seen crits won at every level from P/1 to Cat 5 by 1) sprinters (most frequently); 2) TT champs (second most frequent); 3) well timed attacks by an all arounder; 4) and those that just happened to cross the line 1st. at the lower category level (3/4/5) anyone can win or do well so dont start the "picking" your races stuff there. by the time most people reach the upper categories they know where their bread is buttered and focus on races that suit them more, and if a race doesnt necessarily suit them, they try to succeed in a manner that does. if that manner doesnt work, then they'll live to play another day.
VT biker, you've essentially done base training. now you need to focus on getting fast.
VT biker, you've essentially done base training. now you need to focus on getting fast.
VT biker, at the lower levels of this sport, race everything. Race road races, hilly races, crits, flat circuit races, time trials... everything. Don't be choosy. Try winning different ways too. You might surprise yourself. I never thought myself winning from a breakaway, but this year I did better on breakaways than on sprints, to the point of winning off a solo breakaway initiated from the gun, finishing 2 minutes and change ahead of the pack. I know I can hold my own in a sprint (I've won a handful of sprints, and I do okay at the track), but I didn't know I had enough time trialing ability in me to win off a breakaway, much less a solo break.
On the other end of the spectrum, I started my racing "career" (for lack of a better word) thinking I was a decent hill climber. Turns out most other racers are decenter than I am. What I thought was a strength (from my recreational riding days) turns out to be my most critical limiter. So as soon as I found this out, I started working on that limiter and I am decent enough now to at least hang most of the time, and if I do get dropped, I can sometimes time trial back on.
So race everything. You will very likely surprise yourself.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 09-08-10 at 11:11 AM.
09-08-10, 12:33 PM
#32
Senior Member
So maybe "hate" was too strong a word, let's just say I strongly disprefer crits. I won't generally drive more than an hour to do one, but I am more than happy to do one that is local. My problem with crits is that I don't enjoy the agressive positioning in the last few laps, and I've never been able to break away in one (I've tried). The most fun I had in a crit was a P123 crit early in the year where I had a bunch of teammates (mostly 1s and 2s) and I got to play a little part in the attacking-counter-attacking-chasing stuff with them.
Consequently, I've done only two road races this year.
On the other hand, I will pretty contentedly drive 3 hours to do a 40 minute criterium. So there you go.
On the other end of the spectrum, I started my racing "career" (for lack of a better word) thinking I was a decent hill climber. Turns out most other racers are decenter than I am. What I thought was a strength (from my recreational riding days) turns out to be my most critical limiter. So as soon as I found this out, I started working on that limiter and I am decent enough now to at least hang most of the time, and if I do get dropped, I can sometimes time trial back on.
So race everything. You will very likely surprise yourself.
So race everything. You will very likely surprise yourself.
09-08-10, 01:03 PM
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Yeah I thought I was a climber until I started racing. There were always just enough much better climbers than me, and when I started to get halfway decent, I upgraded into suckitude again...
09-08-10, 06:43 PM
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...
On the other end of the spectrum, I started my racing "career" (for lack of a better word) thinking I was a decent hill climber. Turns out most other racers are decenter than I am. What I thought was a strength (from my recreational riding days) turns out to be my most critical limiter. So as soon as I found this out, I started working on that limiter and I am decent enough now to at least hang most of the time, and if I do get dropped, I can sometimes time trial back on.
So race everything. You will very likely surprise yourself.
On the other end of the spectrum, I started my racing "career" (for lack of a better word) thinking I was a decent hill climber. Turns out most other racers are decenter than I am. What I thought was a strength (from my recreational riding days) turns out to be my most critical limiter. So as soon as I found this out, I started working on that limiter and I am decent enough now to at least hang most of the time, and if I do get dropped, I can sometimes time trial back on.
So race everything. You will very likely surprise yourself.
This I think is because many people train on the flats, but it still always surprises me to see little guys struggle on hills. Now I look forward to road races with some sort of hill in them, whereas I would have thought at the start that my physique was best suited pancake flat crits!
09-09-10, 05:35 AM
#35
Senior Member
My friend who helped me get into racing called me "Van Impe" after the Belgian climber that actually won the Tour. It's like if Richard Virenque or Rasmussen had won the Tour, unheard of for a pure climber to win the Tour. Since it was 4 years before college, and I hit college at 103 lbs, I was probably under 100 lbs.
Although I could climb reasonably well for a recreational cyclist, I wasn't fast. Climbing fast is hard.
When I started racing I looked for road races since "I was a climber". I'd get shelled so fast I couldn't believe it. Crits I got shelled less quickly. After about 15 years of getting shelled in road races (usually 2nd or 3rd racer in the field to get dropped) and finishing in the bottom 5% of all the time trials I did (usually first racer not to have a mechanical or crash or DNF or softpedaling the TT due to no time cut rules), I decided to skip road races and stage races.
cdr
09-09-10, 11:25 AM
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I'm 6'0" and 145lbs. We run 4/5 crits on thursday nights here in Buffalo that are real fast and have some good guys in them. I got 4th in the series this year with a bunch of top 5 finishes.
The racing is all about position, clean turns, and a solid team showing helps too. My teammate (who tied me for 4th) and I battled with 4 guys from another local team all season and we couldn't overtake the top 3 spots in the series, they just wouldn't let us.
In my first few years of racing I did terrible in crits. I wasn't confident in being at the front and all I did was ride my bike (tons of base miles). This year I've done lots of interval training. The park I ride at takes about 6 minutes a lap = the perfect traditional 3 on / 3 off interval. There is a 30 ft gradual incline on one side I use as the "on" side and push my power up. It's paid off enough to make me competitive, not really a winner yet, but I've gone on breaks and controlled fields, it's been a blast.
Get fast!
The racing is all about position, clean turns, and a solid team showing helps too. My teammate (who tied me for 4th) and I battled with 4 guys from another local team all season and we couldn't overtake the top 3 spots in the series, they just wouldn't let us.
In my first few years of racing I did terrible in crits. I wasn't confident in being at the front and all I did was ride my bike (tons of base miles). This year I've done lots of interval training. The park I ride at takes about 6 minutes a lap = the perfect traditional 3 on / 3 off interval. There is a 30 ft gradual incline on one side I use as the "on" side and push my power up. It's paid off enough to make me competitive, not really a winner yet, but I've gone on breaks and controlled fields, it's been a blast.
Get fast!
03-30-14, 08:15 PM
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Very good info as i'm racing this May in CAT5
