Originally Posted by HD3andMe

Related:

What system do riders like Danny Hart use? (rhetorical question) Doesn't look like he uses flat pedals (he doesn't). Yet he rides some pretty rough stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfMQdFGTKAs

Cheers

Originally Posted by livedarklions

It never would have occurred to me that there was any particular skill involved in riding on flats as I have done it all my life so it just seems natural. But so many people are posting that they have no confidence in their ability to stay on the things and that they hurt themselves when they use them that I'm now reconsidering that. Apparently, it's difficult for some people not to bang their shins with their pedals. Who knew?

Interesting you mention stoplights because (and I know this will sound like boasting, but it's true) in an urban setting, I am consistently faster starting on a stoplight than just about any non-motored vehicle I encounter-Stomping onto a big flat pedal gives me a big jolt of power that I don't think I could get if I had to clip in. Again, I don't really know that as I'll never ride clipless. But it really wouldn't at all surprise me if a habitual clipless rider wasn't as good starting on a flat pedal simply because they haven't got a start-up routine suited to the pedal style.

My suspicion has been that there's almost no difference, and my dad always said that the most heated arguments are generally about things that don't matter. When things matter, most times the "right" answer is obvious.

One thing I've noticed about these arguments is that it's going to be impossible to settle them by any kind of study because no one can agree on who the test riders should be. If all pro-level cyclists train a particular way, it only makes sense that they'll be better at that than they are the way they don't train, so it's really not likely you're going to get a group of elite road riders who are as adept at riding on platforms as they are clipless. And if you use average amateur riders, people will say that the lack of difference is because they're not good enough riders to realize the advantages of clipless (or spinning, or whatever).

The second thing I've noticed is that the safety arguments on both sides sound like unmitigated BS to me. Nothing is perfect, but they're both safe.

Originally Posted by HD3andMe

Nah, I'm just responding to your "FWIW, I use both flats and clipless on both my road/gravel and MTBs. I don’t really see one as inherently better than the other outside of timed competition" bit.

It's a fact that clipless are inherently better for many folks outside of timed competition.

Originally Posted by gregf83

I agree the safety argument is thin. I and many others just find clipless more comfortable. The difference between the two pedals when starting out or sprinting (flat or uphill) is that you can apply additional torque while pulling up with a clipped in foot. It's very easy to observe with a powermeter. As far as clipping in at a stoplight or the start of a race, the time required is negligible and more than made up for if someone is trying to accelerate quickly.

Originally Posted by livedarklions

See, but I think that misses an advantage that a flat pedal user has--when I start on a light change, I actually jump on the pedal in a very non-precise way and accelerate very fast from the get-go. I'm not racing, so I have no idea how it compares to how an elite rider would do, but compared to other street riders, I'm taking off very fast.

As for the power boost on the upstroke, the whole point of the OP video is that's negligible at best. Those muscles are too weak to power much of anything.

Originally Posted by burnthesheep

Makes sense for the bigger feet, but how much pressure is there really going to be on an e-bike anyway?..... ...bazzzzinggaaa!

Originally Posted by gregf83

Jumping on the pedal is good for half a revolution. What about all the other revolutions before you're up to speed?

The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.

Originally Posted by gregf83

Jumping on the pedal is good for half a revolution. What about all the other revolutions before you're up to speed?

The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost

So what's everybody's favorite clipless pedal lube?

Originally Posted by gregf83

Jumping on the pedal is good for half a revolution. What about all the other revolutions before you're up to speed?

The OP video looked at a number of existing studies showing that at steady state, threshold type, power levels there is no efficiency benefit to clipless. These findings are not surprising given the old studies which have shown that elite riders apply little to no torque on the upstroke during steady state riding. None of that is relevant when you're sprinting on the flat or up a hill. Sprinters care about maximum power, not efficiency and while sprinting pull up hard on the pedals. Take a look at track sprinters sometime and you'll see them wearing clips as well as straps - they are pulling up hard. It's very easy to feel at low RPM on a steep hill when you're applying maximum effort.

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie

with me a fair amount I am now always pushing hard riding on the lowest setting trying to keep my heart rate at 130 or so.

Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling

I raced BMX for years as a kid, know all about flat pedals and do prefer them for BMX and MTB where I may want to put my foot down and then re-engage the pedal as fast as possible..

Originally Posted by livedarklions

And for a lot of urban areas, road riding where there are a lot of traffic lights is going to look a lot more like that scenario than sprinting or open road riding.

Originally Posted by rosefarts

I'll concede that if your goal is to get the jump at stoplights, maybe flats are better. That's not riding, that's how a ride starts or finishes.

Casual leisure cruise out of town, 2-6miles, followed by 30-100 miles of open road and gravel, other than potty breaks, I might not remove my foot from the pedals for several hours at a time. Return to the stifling heat of town and again, leisure cruise home, extra careful not to do something stupid in my weakened condition.

Or same idea but I drive to start, so I'm very possibly clipped in the entire ride unless I need water or snap pics.

Enjoy jumping at the stop light, I think I'd quit riding if that were my reality.

Originally Posted by Kapusta

I find these debates of who can get stuck at the next stoplight sooner to be kind of entertaining.

Originally Posted by roundypndr

I too like to commute with pinned MTB platforms, and any efficiency improvements that clipless pedals may happen to give, were negligible for my shorter commutes and errand travels.