base2 

I run standard Shimano SPD PD-M520 or XTR M-9000/9100 on every bike I own. There has never been any issue related to whether they are "better" (or worse) than flat pedals.

It is nice to know I'm attached. That becomes readily apparent every time I need high torque to climb a steep pitch or a motivated departure from a stop light. I can't count how many times I've thrust down with one leg & found the other in the air, Lord only know where above it's pedal. "Oops! I guess I should've clipped in!" I admit, the pull up on the back is rare, but is indeed useful.

Clipless are especially nice when cracking 110 rpms with deliberate round strokes. Supposed "power" benefits aside, flat pedals don't allow for the back sweep & consistant foot position at the top in quite the same way. It matters as far as I'm concerned.

Having said that: I do like platforms with the pins for recreational purposes. I do find my foot floating around a bit and my foot tends to go every direction other than straight & that makes my knee feel "loose." It never was a really big deal though. But it could be, so I stopped using them.

The biggest drawback to platform pedals I ever experienced was the constant pedal strikes as I sought to right the bike from a deep leaning low speed manuver. I had launched myself off the bike & into bushes more than once. Throttle control for agility is a basic skill & the performance envelope is just too unacceptably limited by wide flat pedals striking the ground, IMO.

Suit yourself. Riding on a bike & mastering a tool are very different ventures.

Branko D

I happen to have a power meter both on my touring bike with flat pedals (good ones with pins, so slipping was never an issue) and on the road bike with road clipless. Outside of all out sprints (well... they're not very impressive either way, heh) where I can deliver more power on clipless, there's no difference I can discern looking at heart rate and power output. I rode up to 260km on flats (carrying a load, no less) and 300km on clipless and haven't had issues with either, and the heart rate and power were very similar. I'm going to trust the science on this one; clipless is not more efficient.


Personally, I prefer flats in traffic, because starting uphill at traffic lights with road clipless is not terribly fun (and I tend to stop at red lights and the like). On the other hand, clipless makes sense with road bike gearing because I run out of gears for smoothly spinning in the saddle (or run out of power to go fast enough, another way of looking at it) somewhere above about 12-13% climbs or so, and have to get on my feet and I feel better doing that while clipped in. Plus, they just look the part on a road bike.


GCN also tested it and found the same - they could sprint harder, and being experienced roadies, they liked it more, but they couldn't find a difference in efficiency or power in steady state riding at all.

AlgarveCycling

Most cyclists are not cycling for competition making the discussion less relevant because the differences are whittled down to pedalling preferences rather than performance, some of us though are and we prefer clipless for good reasons attributed to performance gains that simply don't matter to most. In my training rides I'll rarely come across a stoplight or have to do more than a track-stand at a stop street. All this getting going from a stoplight is irrelevant to most in my region, given I don't live in a city but between towns and never train through either. If I lived in a city full-time I'd use flats for commuting and riding around it. Still, I don't know anyone who 'sprints' to get up to speed after a stop.

A full gas sprint would see anyone of a similar W/KG level on flats dropped by those on clipless. It's just a fact. I've won BMX races on flats, I've won road races on clipless. There is a difference and I believe nowadays that clipless is preferred even in BMX too at higher levels and only discouraged among novices and kids. There is no debate as to which allows you to use all of your power which is why you never see any Elite or Pro cyclist choosing flats for road or track; clipless or strapped in like you would be on track wins for power sprinting. I do HIIT training twice a week, clipless is so much quicker - by a margin of greater than 10% at least.

Anyone on flats in any of my group rides and certainly races, will be dropped in an attack and won't be able to challenge to the finish. True, at a nice steady cadence and with an efficient pedalling style, flats are fine and so great for all those who are just generally out for a ride, touring, commuting and who don't do the race thing. I agree too that getting feet back into clipless can be a fumble - even among very experienced riders.

My Speedplays are dual-sided so make it somewhat easier and I know several riders who use XC MTB dual-sided pedals on their road bikes too to make clipping in easier but still, 2 out of 10 times I'll not re-engage instantly and the aftermath can be a bit of a fumble. That said, at stop streets, if I don't get my foot in immediately, I treat the pedals as flats and get going. Just as quickly as someone on flats would. I only then re-engage once away and rolling so any fumble is of limited loss in time terms - not that time is generally important at stop streets unless they are included in a route you want to time trial, which I can't imagine why anyone would do.

For downhill or very technical MTB I prefer flats because I dab my feet down more often on tight turns and for commuting because I don't want to be tied to cleated shoes for walking stretches. For XC MTB, road and track I prefer clipless so that I can use my full power. Different tools for different types of riding. If full gas sprints are not a part of your ride and lower intensity is the main feature then flats are fine in all cases.

dmark 

Conan, what is best?

roundypndr 

I do use walking shoes with high grip soles, and yes, they do bite into the pins without slipping, even with rain coverings over the shoes.

dedhed

What I've found and observed for rapid departure from stoplights is downshifting to a lower gear coming in makes more difference that what pedals you're pushing.

rydabent

Of course this is totally wrong if you ride a trike. If you use clip in pedals, he will prevent leg suck. It can happen with flat pedals.

Toespeas

i always find the best part of a well fitting shoe with a molded insole is support , you might can do any amount of miles on flats , but if you think its better , your just not doing it a lot , or doing it with a purpose and you are just pushing through the discomfort with will power to prove your point to yourself , clippless systems allows you take the pressure off your sole without loosing watts aka power and torque and holds your foot in place , i dont know how people ride flats without getting numb feet ???

livedarklions

First of all, bs. I've done dozens of rides of more than 150 miles, on platforms, I ride hard and I don't experience any of the stuff you describe. If you're putting pressure on the foot on the upstroke, you're doing it wrong no matter what kind of pedals you're using, so the pedaling cycle prevents the numbness you've made up. I have a history of major foot problems, and one of the reasons I've become so committed to cycling is that I can do all I want without my feet flaring up. Trust me, when my feet flare up, there's no "pushing through," It's basically crippling.

Oh, and as to "not doing it a lot", in the last two days, I've ridden 200 miles and climbed 6000 feet yesterday. I'm going to take it a little easy and only ride 50 miles today.

Basically, you're just making crap up in your head.


BTW, there's costs to the foot caused by restraining the pressure point to the same exact spot. Know what? I've never heard a platform pedal rider complain about a "hot spot".

I'd bet you that something like 85-90% of adults who ride bikes use platforms. You end up sounding pretty silly when you tell us how we're riding.

wolfchild

It's not about which pedal is better, it has nothing to do with watts or efficiency or any of that...It's all about personal preference. Even if somebody provided scientific proof that clipless are more efficient I still wouldn't use them, I would continue to use platforms.

Speedway2

I tried platforms for my Hybrid but ended up swapping them for SPD's (a system I've been using since the mid-90's).
Can anyone recommend a combo pedal (flat one-side, SPD the other) so my Hybrid can have the best of both worlds........

rosefarts

If you look at this thread responses as data points, the idea of 90% of adult riders falls apart.

Are you counting homeless dudes, taking the family around the block, and rides to the bar?

elcruxio

For most cyclists cycling is a mode of transport and not a hobby at least here in Europe and I'll assume the rest of the world excluding the US and perhaps some other anglic regions. Here people are cycle hobbyists so any results drawn from data points here are going to be heavily skewed.

Those who treat cycling only as a mode of transport rarely if ever use foot retention when cycling. There's not much point really. Of those who also consider cycling as a hobby only a portion uses foot retention. Of those who consider cycling as a hobby and not a mode of transport only a portion use foot retention.

​​​​​Now I don't know how many cyclists consider cycling as a hobby but considering some vague data from my neck of the woods I'm going to guess that it is perhaps 1% or 2% and I may be generous with that assessment. Most Finns and Europeans cycle from time to time but only a tiny fraction would call themselves cyclists.

Think of it this way. Lots of people drive cars, but how many of those consider themselves as auto enthusiasts and how large is the portion of those who own a hobby car or mount cup seats and five point belts on their car?

Also lots and lots of cyclotourists don't use foot retention while still cranking out considerable mileage day by day.

For reference, I use SPD clipless on my my touring and mountain bike but not on my utility bike.

dedhed

Shimano eh500 or m324.

Homebrew01

Clipless have benefits for those who make use of their benefits.
They don't have benefits for those who don't make use of their benefits.

livedarklions

There's so much "no true Scotsman" fallacy going on in this thread. You and I can't be "real" bicyclists because we don't use SPDs.

Homebrew01

MOD Note To ALL: Time to drop the "Personal" stuff.

livedarklions

Is that most of the cycling universe? Not even close.

This thread is a very select group, and not a reasonable sample for generalizing anything.

CliffordK

I do pull up... but similar to what many studies have shown, I only pull up part of the time, not all of the time.

Most of the studies I've seen were lab studies, and only looked at efficiency, and not at maximum power or longterm endurance.

Another thing I've noticed are times when I'm struggling to get home, totally exhausted, then I may have ZERO extra power pushing down... reserves are totally depleted. But, I may have a little extra reserve power with pulling up. I have to wonder if racers also experience the same thing when trying to sprint after a 100 mile race.

With cargo cycling, I think I also noticed certain types of drag which seemed to benefit from pulling up. I think I saw a similar research study mentioned in one cycling book. I may try to look it up, but they found benefits of pulling up with certain types of higher load situations as one might experience with cargo or hill climbs.

CliffordK

Ahhh, found my notes earlier.

https://www.bikeforums.net/18173095-post58.html

They applied what they called a non-inertial load. Essentially, a strong load slowing down the pedal stroke, and measured the force throughout the pedal stroke. This might be what one would experience with hill climbs, cargo, or even hard accelerations.



What they found was that there was a measurable force pulling up. It wasn't nearly as strong as the downstroke, but it was not insignificant.

Another thing I would note. I've had to deal with traction issues on hill climbs at times. Standing puts the weight forward onto the front wheel. I can get lots of power both pushing and pulling, but I get a very sharp bursts of power on the power curve and can break loose the wheel. Sitting, on the other hand, puts more weight onto the rear wheel, to the point I can do accidental wheelies. Thus, nearly all the weight is back onto the traction tire. And it is easier to smooth out one's pedalling stroke (pedalling in circles). Evening out the power helps keep from breaking loose. Higher cadence might help too, but I tend to hit the lower cadences.

Doge

Cam Wurf didn't get that message. Guess he like breaking the Kona bike section record more than winning.

Bill63

really nothing all that bad,you just loose the ability to lift at the same time as pushing so you are not as efficient

smoore

That's better than slamming yourself into the top tube. We've all done that at least once right?

nextSibling

As someone who's been riding clipless (SPD, mainly) pedals for about 25 years, I can tell you that I really don't care whatever someone else prefers and maybe you probably shouldn't either.

Bill63

nope, never done that