Why so much hate for Gatorskins?
09-02-20, 12:55 PM
#102
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In the days when I ran Gatorskins, it was on my Trek 2.1. Neither the bikes nor the tires (or for that matter, the engine) were going to win any performance pageants. So it was not a bad match. But these days I have the 4 seasons on that bike.
09-02-20, 01:04 PM
#104
Fredly Fredster
I installed fenders on the 1.1 with Gatorskins. It's my "rain" bike. I've never had any issues with the Gatorskins slipping on wet roads. And yes, like you.... I don't plan on racing the 1.1 with Gatorskins any time soon.
09-02-20, 01:07 PM
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I see, BF has changed and you are the new sheriff. Yup. you've got 190 posts here and this is your world to sculpt as you deem proper. Seattle Forrest , with his 21,000 posts is the old guard and should retire. Get out of town before sundown, Seattle Forrest, you hear me?
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09-02-20, 01:48 PM
#106
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Also, what the tire feels like in your hand, off the bike, means less than nothing to performance.
That's a pretty obvious fallacy you've just fallen into.
It also makes sense per the physical cause of rolling resistance, which is hysteresis in the tire casing and tread as the tire deforms. More resistance to deformation (i.e. more stiffness) offers more opportunity for energy to be lost. Obviously this isn't a completely precise relationship (since tire materials and layups can vary in their amount of hysteresis per a given degree of stiffness), but it makes sense for it to hold on average.
And the relationship is pretty clear when eyeballing tires.
When you look at ultra-beefy touring tires like Marathon Plus, they usually feel extremely sturdy in the hand and aggressively want to hold a tire shape. And if you mount them on a rim, they look and feel almost like they'd be rideable without inflation.
By contrast, quality performance-oriented racing tires across the board have thin super-flexy casings, and are usually only a few millimeters deep even at the tread centerline (sometimes even less, like in the case of velodrome silks with <.5mm thick latex treads). They just sort of flop around until you air them up a ways.
How a tire feels in the hand is not the end-all to performance, but it's a rough proxy that certainly doesn't mean "less than nothing."
09-02-20, 01:52 PM
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Whoa. I try not to make assumptions about what sorts of objections that people will raise in online discussions, but I certainly didn't see "you're using a counterfeit Gatorskin" coming.
"Gatorskins are supple. That's not a real Gatorskin you're feeling. Even if it was a real Gatorskin, suppleness doesn't matter!"
Positive correlation between tire stiffness and higher rolling resistance is backed up by every method that people use for measuring rolling resistance. It shows up on the drum, it shows up on coast-down tests, it shows up on Chung, etc.
It also makes sense per the physical cause of rolling resistance, which is hysteresis in the tire casing and tread as the tire deforms. More resistance to deformation (i.e. more stiffness) offers more opportunity for energy to be lost. Obviously this isn't a completely precise relationship (since tire materials and layups can vary in their amount of hysteresis per a given degree of stiffness), but it makes sense for it to hold on average.
And the relationship is pretty clear when eyeballing tires.
When you look at ultra-beefy touring tires like Marathon Plus, they usually feel extremely sturdy in the hand and aggressively want to hold a tire shape. And if you mount them on a rim, they look and feel almost like they'd be rideable without inflation.
By contrast, quality performance-oriented racing tires across the board have thin super-flexy casings, and are usually only a few millimeters deep even at the tread centerline (sometimes even less, like in the case of velodrome silks with <.5mm thick latex treads). They just sort of flop around until you air them up a ways.
How a tire feels in the hand is not the end-all to performance, but it's a rough proxy that certainly doesn't mean "less than nothing."
"Gatorskins are supple. That's not a real Gatorskin you're feeling. Even if it was a real Gatorskin, suppleness doesn't matter!"
Positive correlation between tire stiffness and higher rolling resistance is backed up by every method that people use for measuring rolling resistance. It shows up on the drum, it shows up on coast-down tests, it shows up on Chung, etc.
It also makes sense per the physical cause of rolling resistance, which is hysteresis in the tire casing and tread as the tire deforms. More resistance to deformation (i.e. more stiffness) offers more opportunity for energy to be lost. Obviously this isn't a completely precise relationship (since tire materials and layups can vary in their amount of hysteresis per a given degree of stiffness), but it makes sense for it to hold on average.
And the relationship is pretty clear when eyeballing tires.
When you look at ultra-beefy touring tires like Marathon Plus, they usually feel extremely sturdy in the hand and aggressively want to hold a tire shape. And if you mount them on a rim, they look and feel almost like they'd be rideable without inflation.
By contrast, quality performance-oriented racing tires across the board have thin super-flexy casings, and are usually only a few millimeters deep even at the tread centerline (sometimes even less, like in the case of velodrome silks with <.5mm thick latex treads). They just sort of flop around until you air them up a ways.
How a tire feels in the hand is not the end-all to performance, but it's a rough proxy that certainly doesn't mean "less than nothing."
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09-02-20, 01:59 PM
#109
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He’s not even handy to use as Simplicio, since he just makes stuff up and denies photos.
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09-02-20, 01:59 PM
#110
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Positive correlation between tire stiffness and higher rolling resistance is backed up by every method that people use for measuring rolling resistance. It shows up on the drum, it shows up on coast-down tests, it shows up on Chung, etc.
It also makes sense per the physical cause of rolling resistance, which is hysteresis in the tire casing and tread as the tire deforms. More resistance to deformation (i.e. more stiffness) offers more opportunity for energy to be lost. Obviously this isn't a completely precise relationship (since tire materials and layups can vary in their amount of hysteresis per a given degree of stiffness), but it makes sense for it to hold on average.
And the relationship is pretty clear when eyeballing tires.
When you look at ultra-beefy touring tires like Marathon Plus, they usually feel extremely sturdy in the hand and aggressively want to hold a tire shape. And if you mount them on a rim, they look and feel almost like they'd be rideable without inflation.
By contrast, quality performance-oriented racing tires across the board have thin super-flexy casings, and are usually only a few millimeters deep even at the tread centerline (sometimes even less, like in the case of velodrome silks with <.5mm thick latex treads). They just sort of flop around until you air them up a ways.
It also makes sense per the physical cause of rolling resistance, which is hysteresis in the tire casing and tread as the tire deforms. More resistance to deformation (i.e. more stiffness) offers more opportunity for energy to be lost. Obviously this isn't a completely precise relationship (since tire materials and layups can vary in their amount of hysteresis per a given degree of stiffness), but it makes sense for it to hold on average.
And the relationship is pretty clear when eyeballing tires.
When you look at ultra-beefy touring tires like Marathon Plus, they usually feel extremely sturdy in the hand and aggressively want to hold a tire shape. And if you mount them on a rim, they look and feel almost like they'd be rideable without inflation.
By contrast, quality performance-oriented racing tires across the board have thin super-flexy casings, and are usually only a few millimeters deep even at the tread centerline (sometimes even less, like in the case of velodrome silks with <.5mm thick latex treads). They just sort of flop around until you air them up a ways.
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09-02-20, 02:14 PM
#111
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I have only been talking about things I know a great deal about. I have not said anything that is factually incorrect.
Citations needed. You can't just make those claims without showing the actual measurements from the actual tires via a rigorous study.
I never said aero power was linear. What I said, and what still is true (and always will be) is that the power needed to travel at a certain speed has much more to do with air resistance than it does rolling resistance of the tires. The 10W some other poster claimed Gatorskins cost is on the order of magnitude of changing your hand position and tucking in your elbows. The power differences you are talking about, going from 20 to 30 mph, are an order of magnitude larger. The tires simply get swamped by the aero factors at that point.
And now you've lost all credibility due to ad hominem attacks and absurd claims. If you actually own everything "short of a wind tunnel" then why are you buying Gatorskins instead of top of the line, premium tires for your precious TT bike? Gatorskins aren't marketed to your ilk, because they aren't designed for TT bikes. They are designed for people that want a reliable, durable, flat-resistant tire that can still be supple and grippy in the corners, all while staying budget conscious. If you're out for pure performance, no, Gatorskins are not top of their class, but if you want to save some money and spend less time fixing flats, all while getting racing-quality grip, then Gatorskins are for you. It's literally just that simple.
Citations needed. You can't just make those claims without showing the actual measurements from the actual tires via a rigorous study.
I never said aero power was linear. What I said, and what still is true (and always will be) is that the power needed to travel at a certain speed has much more to do with air resistance than it does rolling resistance of the tires. The 10W some other poster claimed Gatorskins cost is on the order of magnitude of changing your hand position and tucking in your elbows. The power differences you are talking about, going from 20 to 30 mph, are an order of magnitude larger. The tires simply get swamped by the aero factors at that point.
And now you've lost all credibility due to ad hominem attacks and absurd claims. If you actually own everything "short of a wind tunnel" then why are you buying Gatorskins instead of top of the line, premium tires for your precious TT bike? Gatorskins aren't marketed to your ilk, because they aren't designed for TT bikes. They are designed for people that want a reliable, durable, flat-resistant tire that can still be supple and grippy in the corners, all while staying budget conscious. If you're out for pure performance, no, Gatorskins are not top of their class, but if you want to save some money and spend less time fixing flats, all while getting racing-quality grip, then Gatorskins are for you. It's literally just that simple.
I run Corsa Speed TL for racing and GP5000 and latex for training. I don't own any Gators. Pics of my TT bike and fit are in the 33, you can see it's got the 5000's on it for training. I setup the HED's tubeless before a race and toss on the Corsas.
I've got a Quarq, wheel speed sensor, anemometer, and all the Chung VE formulas in Excel to do VE on the rides to choose optimal setups for position and equipment. It's a pretty accepted method, again........just short of a wind tunnel.
The reason people get junk for Gators is that they claim to need them for durability, but what they ride them in is a relatively mild environment. If you're avoiding hobo glass bottles and nails as a bike courrier, fine. But otherwise, folks need to learn to stay out of the gutter, bunny hop, and inflate to the right pressures. That's my only gripe about them. I don't care one way or another if people run them. I just don't see that the tiny extra bit of flat protection is worth all the loss in a really uncomfortable and slow tire.
Also, don't get into the drum testing complaints.........people have done Chung VE to draw out differences in CRR with success, and I'm sure you could show just as big a difference with Gators there also:
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...&min=6&minpr=6
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09-02-20, 02:49 PM
#112
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I also never said that suppleness doesn't matter. I said that what a tire feels like in your hand means less than nothing to how it will perform when properly inflated on the bike. There's a huge difference in those two statements, but I guess acknowledging that difference would require you to admit my statements are correct. And Science Forbid that the "latter day Sheldon Brown (LOL!)" should ever have to admit to being fallible!
Basically what this all boils down to is this: Gatorskins are a very fast, supple, extremely well-handling, long-lasting tire with best-in-class flat protection. I know this from personal experience, and millions of other happy riders (some of whom reported in for this thread) know this as well. Of course, if you take that same, supple, silky yet strong feeling tire and over-inflate it, it is not going to perform as designed. People claiming that these are "slow" or "crappy" tires just don't know how to use them, but rather than admit their own faults, those people usually just trash talk their abused tires on the internet.
09-02-20, 02:54 PM
#113
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I never said you were using a "counterfeit Gatorskin." I said the tire in your first photo did not look like a Gatorskin tire. See the difference in those two statements?
I also never said that suppleness doesn't matter. I said that what a tire feels like in your hand means less than nothing to how it will perform when properly inflated on the bike. There's a huge difference in those two statements, but I guess acknowledging that difference would require you to admit my statements are correct. And Science Forbid that the "latter day Sheldon Brown (LOL!)" should ever have to admit to being fallible!
Basically what this all boils down to is this: Gatorskins are a very fast, supple, extremely well-handling, long-lasting tire with best-in-class flat protection. I know this from personal experience, and millions of other happy riders (some of whom reported in for this thread) know this as well. Of course, if you take that same, supple, silky yet strong feeling tire and over-inflate it, it is not going to perform as designed. People claiming that these are "slow" or "crappy" tires just don't know how to use them, but rather than admit their own faults, those people usually just trash talk their abused tires on the internet.
I also never said that suppleness doesn't matter. I said that what a tire feels like in your hand means less than nothing to how it will perform when properly inflated on the bike. There's a huge difference in those two statements, but I guess acknowledging that difference would require you to admit my statements are correct. And Science Forbid that the "latter day Sheldon Brown (LOL!)" should ever have to admit to being fallible!
Basically what this all boils down to is this: Gatorskins are a very fast, supple, extremely well-handling, long-lasting tire with best-in-class flat protection. I know this from personal experience, and millions of other happy riders (some of whom reported in for this thread) know this as well. Of course, if you take that same, supple, silky yet strong feeling tire and over-inflate it, it is not going to perform as designed. People claiming that these are "slow" or "crappy" tires just don't know how to use them, but rather than admit their own faults, those people usually just trash talk their abused tires on the internet.
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09-02-20, 02:55 PM
#114
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Yep, bored now. Still five minuted of meeting hell though.
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09-02-20, 02:59 PM
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I am not a troll. I was having a conversation with someone who decided to intentionally mis-quote me, in a sad attempt to make a strawman out of things I never said. This whole thing started because OP asked a troll question though, so maybe you can bug them about trolling?
09-02-20, 03:04 PM
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I am not a troll. I was having a conversation with someone who decided to intentionally mis-quote me, in a sad attempt to make a strawman out of things I never said. This whole thing started because OP asked a troll question though, so maybe you can bug them about trolling?
Unsub.
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09-02-20, 03:15 PM
#117
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that said, i used to ride gaterskins but with most of the claims i've read on BF i have been changing out to something else (gater in back somethign else in front). I think i can tell a difference but am not entirely sure because at the same time i have lowered pressure based on another thread here on BF. glad i did, pretty sure that has made a diffeence in comfort.
09-02-20, 03:17 PM
#118
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Taking a break from the not so amusing and less than original Troll, here is a good alternative for folks who need extra flat protection but can't stomach going full Gator. I like to use them in the winter when I hope to avoid having to fix a flat with frozen fingers. These have black chili so they don't lose a lot in cold weather grip. Inexpensive.
And yes, I may have mentioned these a few times before
And yes, I may have mentioned these a few times before
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09-02-20, 03:26 PM
#119
Senior Member
This has been an interesting thead but to be fair BoraxKid never made that claim but by putting it in quotes you make it seem so.
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09-02-20, 04:06 PM
#120
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Word to the wise: If a person feels another poster is a troll, it's best to hit the report button, and not post about it.
FWIW, people pushed the hell out of some buttons here, and the poster that was targeted handled the incoming rather well. Kudos.
Again, the report button works. Please use it. mmk? thnks.
FWIW, people pushed the hell out of some buttons here, and the poster that was targeted handled the incoming rather well. Kudos.
Again, the report button works. Please use it. mmk? thnks.
09-02-20, 04:25 PM
#121
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So here's how I would handle it fellas -
• some poster makes a statement which I consider flat out wrong, I just can't agree with it.
• I address his statement with one of my own, a correct one of course because after all, I'm me.
• poster doubles down on his post, defends it, adds on to it and everything. He ain't impressed.
• I drop it. I don't continue to counter because it's a waste of my time and, of course, I have better and more important things to do. It doesn't matter if he's dead wrong (in my opinion). It doesn't matter if he's dead wrong in everybody's opinion. It's none of my business if he persists in being uninformed, I did the best that I could do.
* next I walk away, leave the thread, because I'm in danger of an infraction if I start calling names or harassing somebody. Plus the mods have given me plenty of warning, so I got no freaking excuse. I just find me a thread I like better.
Yep, this is what we recommend.
• some poster makes a statement which I consider flat out wrong, I just can't agree with it.
• I address his statement with one of my own, a correct one of course because after all, I'm me.
• poster doubles down on his post, defends it, adds on to it and everything. He ain't impressed.
• I drop it. I don't continue to counter because it's a waste of my time and, of course, I have better and more important things to do. It doesn't matter if he's dead wrong (in my opinion). It doesn't matter if he's dead wrong in everybody's opinion. It's none of my business if he persists in being uninformed, I did the best that I could do.
* next I walk away, leave the thread, because I'm in danger of an infraction if I start calling names or harassing somebody. Plus the mods have given me plenty of warning, so I got no freaking excuse. I just find me a thread I like better.
Yep, this is what we recommend.
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Last edited by BillyD; 09-02-20 at 04:29 PM.
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09-02-20, 05:00 PM
#122
Pizzaiolo Americano
He reminds me a bit of 1500SLR that was on here a while ago...He is the guy that drilled holes in his "SLR grade" Trek aluminum frame to install Di2 and thought that made him an expert on all things mechanical...
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09-02-20, 05:04 PM
#123
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This thread did remind me to order some more Michelin Power Protection+s, so there's that good that came out of it.
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09-02-20, 05:40 PM
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I just bought a "new" (vintage) bike. Very different ride from my usual bike. Which has Pasela Panaracers. The new one has Gatorskins. I have no idea how much of the ride difference is the bike and how much is the tire.
09-02-20, 06:32 PM
#125
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I actually have a pair of those waiting to be mounted on my touring bike; I ordered them like, 2 months ago I think. I had been using Soma Everwears (700x28) for years for commuting, but now that I've moved, I'm going to switch to the Michelins (700x32) and do some light, mixed-terrain touring. Once the heat dissipates, I should have some tasty weekend retreats lined up.
