seypat

Scratch the no cases in Va. We might have a case on the other side of the river in Henrico county.

The possible cases turned out negative. No cases so far.

RobbieTunes

Yes.

TriBiker19 

I'm going to be the clueless person. I was looking at the triple Ironman thread and I'm going to admit, I was lost. Is there a link that explains gearing vs. power and what's beneficial for riding? I've googled and found many sites that don't help. I can drive a stick, I understand shifting my bike, but I'd like to comprehend gearing ratios in relation to cranks and cassettes. I get the basics, but you're classifying based on how many teeth are in each revolution. I'd like more info on what's good and bad based on the numbers.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Help me out. I want to understand.

RobbieTunes

Don't go down that....

10-year olds instinctively understand gearing, effort, and power. Sometime after puberty, we lose that.

I'm taking a class in that stuff. The collusion/collision of wattage, cadence, terrain, gearing, speed and heart rate is a horrible thing to realize. There are six variables and I believe I partially comprehend two.

The instructor has to dangle that carrot a lot of different ways for me to see any more light.

Relating and adjusting everything to speed has been my way....it's not correct. It will either hinder my endurance or kill me. Left to my own instincts two days ago, I punched through the 225 barrier on HR several times, and was over 200 for 34 minutes of a 1:04 ride. Not good. Not that fast, either.

Trial and error may just be the simplest approach. I simply do not know.

rccardr 

One easy way to gain some understanding of the relation between power, cadence, gearing and heart rate is to spend some time on a high quality stationary bike with good instrumentation. You'll find that a certain power number (expressed in watts) is necessary to maintain forward motion on the flats (for me that's between 120 and 150 watts) and progress up varying inclines (for me, that's between 150 and 200 watts). I rarely have to exceed 200 watts for any length of time, but I can maintain that output for quite a while with a heart rate under 150 BPM. Interesting things happen when you start to play with the cadence and resistance- higher cadence at a lower resistance results in the same watt output as lower cadence at higher resistance. And your heart rate will change as well (in my case, BPM goes up with higher cadence even at a lower resistance and the same power output). So that's a piece of it. And as a side note, between November and March I'll go to spin class five or six times a week, even doing it solo if the times don't mesh with my schedule. Over time, I've gained a pretty good idea of all those numbers mentioned above as well as how many calories I consume per minute.

You've already figured out, I'm sure, that you can spin slowly in a high gear or spin fast in a lower gear and attain the same speed. The question is, which one makes your body happy? Which one can you maintain for an extended period of time? Those are good numbers to know, but yours will be different from mine.

seypat

Let me post this video then we can discuss it going forward. Every rider will fall somewhere in between.

RobbieTunes

"find that sweet spot and groove on up...."

On point. On Thunder Ridge.

I asked the obstructor/instructor about climbing and flat out riding, etc. (Not that I want to race anyone, but I like to keep up.)

He said, "(after riding with you), I think you should just keep outclimbing them and eventually they won't be able to pass you. But otherwise, you really need leg speed." Cadence, I assume.

Therein lies the rub. I've ridden with Doc. I may outclimb him as far as speed upward, but if I'm in sight when the hills stop, I'm toast. He will walk me down like a coon hound.

I am working on leg speed, for flats, but finding the balance, for an "overfed, long-haired leaping gnome," well, it's elusive.

Bonus to name that tune...

texaspandj

Spill the wine.
I tried to get my boys to play that song a couple of months ago but who'd sing it?

I know nothing about heart rate, power, and cadence relationship. However with all the latest Gizmo, gadgets and Mickey mouse watches it seems we should all be faster...or at least more efficient.

seypat

This is very good info.

TriBiker19 

Bonus eye candy, thanks.

I've recently been incorporating sprints into my shorter trainer rides. Get my cadence up until I'm at about a 40mph pace, hold for 90 seconds, drop back down to a comfortable 18mph pace. I don't have a fancy watt meter, I just get on the trainer for a specific time, ride at a certain speed. I've figured out that if I get bored, I can do my nails or check emails or whatever. I'm trying to do heart rate training, but I find that I can't kick over 20mph or my heart rate goes above 135.

Maybe I'm approaching this like running and that's not to way to go?

seypat

Believe or not, I do a decent job singing that song. I don't have the coordination or fine motor skills in my hands to play an instrument, but I can sing. Eric Burdon is one of the greats in my opinion. He has/had that extra something that separates him from the rest of the front people. I don't think he gets the recognition he deserves. My wife absolutely hates that song. I think it is the the pinnacle of what can happen when you throw a bunch of talented musicians in the room together. So organic! Let's see what Tribiker19 thinks. Eric back in the day might be some good eye candy for her also. Check out the harmonica player. He is in another dimension altogether.

madpogue 

Check out 52telecaster 's latest Aldi thread; I think it's time for a BF C&V battle of the bands.....

seypat

I think what the video shows is that every person is different. As Doc points out, you have to find your strengths and weaknesses and find out what works for you. Time for the SOTR plug. You hear us talking about Storming Of Thunder Ridge. That's a ride some of us do each year. It might be close enough for you to join us. Anyway, look at the profile. https://www.ymcacva.org/storming-thunder-ridge


I am a fasttwitch sprinter type like the sprinter in the video. The best way for me ironically, to train for a climbing ride, is to NOT do lots of climbing. It makes me more of an explosive sprinter type and saps what little endurance I have out of my legs. The years that I have done my best is when I go to the gym get on a stationary bike, ride cadence intervals of 65/75/85 while gradually increasing the resistance and holding it. No riding hills on a real bike. Even then, I have yet to make it through the 14 mile climb without cramping once during the first 7 and once during the second 7. Last year I was sick and did not start. The year before was my best outing to date, at least on the first part. I didn't cramp until 100 yards from the mid point SAG, but they were really intense. The course splits at 65 miles in. You have to make a choice of either the 75 route or the 100 route. For me, the 100 route is easier than the 75. At least on the 100 you get some flat stretches to spin the Lactic acid out of your legs. The last 10 on the 75 route is torture for me. I am cussing the race director in my mind telling her how much I hate her f-n ride. Then I cross the finish line and all is forgiven. Doc and Robbie most likely don't agree with me. Everyone is different. You need to experiment and find what works for you.

rccardr 

Ah, so you've noticed. You climb faster and more easily than me, partly because of the age and weight differences, partly because your leg structure (ratio of upper leg to lower leg) is more advantageous to climbing, and partly because you've been more of an athlete your entire life. You can maintain a higher cadence for a longer period of time. But once we get into my area of expertise, which (as you know-remember the carbon boys we passed a couple years ago?) is false flats and just flat out highest gear stomping, then things even out.

Couple years ago I talked to a lot of people about how to be a better climber. Some of it is technique, some of it is patience, some of it is humility (don't try to beat the mountain), some of it is training. Some of it is just riding a lot of steep inclines over and over again. At the end of all those years of training and riding, I'm certainly better than I was, but still not a good climber and definitely not as good as you are.

Descending, on the other hand, is a different matter. Perhaps one day you'll post that video of us dropping down the back side of Thunder Ridge like a couple of idiots...

rccardr 

Could be. But something that stands out to me is if you can check e-mails or do your nails then you're not training hard enough to get a lot of performance improvement. Not sure what your age is, but even at mine (68) 135BPM is right at my sustainable sweet spot; I try to keep things below 150 because once you get into that red-ish zone you don't recover as quickly. My theoretical max is 165.

Might be worth researching max BPM for your age and condition. Also moving into a higher gear and lower cadence when you want to go faster. Work up to a higher speed/more power over several minutes instead of jumping on it.

seypat

One year Doc and I ran into each other and rode together at a ride between Richmond and DC. I remember he had a routine where he pedaled for 3-5 strokes then coasted for a short time. It was efficient and energy saving. What got me was that he didn't lose any speed, not even into the wind.

rccardr 

Ah, you noticed. That was the Richmond Gran Fondo of 2016 if I recall correctly.
It's actually 12-14 strokes but you got the idea. I use that technique primarily in the 'middle hours' of a century ride to extend capability in the later miles.

Another thing we talked about at the time was 'maximum roll'. Always set your hubs and drivetrain up so as to get the maximum amount of non-driven roll or coast. Use the right hub grease and be particular about cone tension. When you gain speed coasting up a hill, you know it's correct.

RobbieTunes

I have a very old, odd CD of them, with covers of "Hwy 61," "Paint it Black," and a very slow version of "...Rising Sun.". "Spill the Wine" is on there, and in the background during the monologue, someone mentions Van Morrison, the original gnome. The rhythm section is in BioPace mode most of the album.

Also liked his stuff with War. A mix of War, Sly Stone, and Chicago would have been great. Always liked bands with horns and pianos.

seypat

I remember those hubs being really shiny. 6400, correct? I think I have 3 sets of those now. That was a pretty bike. Schwinn Tempo if I recall.
So that was 12-14 strokes/coast intervals. It was very methodical and effective. We were in the middle of the ride out in BFE. Good info. Thanks for sharing.

seypat

Van Morrison has a new album out. "Three Cords and the Truth." The first single, "Dark Night of the Soul" is getting a lot of play on the independent stations in VA. It's a good tune. Typical Van Morrison song.

seypat

Seems like you had a thread about excessive HR numbers. It's still hard to believe those numbers. I just shows what kind of engine you have. Still, not healthy in the long run. I guess that's why you're paying attention to it.

When my HR starts getting in the 170 range, the body has some measures to get it back down. The need for increased oxygen flow will dry out my air passageways which causes my nose to bleed. Then muscles start cramping. Either way I have to shut it down and wait out the bleeding/cramps.

TriBiker19 

That's what I'm working on, a zone 2 long ride. I'm 43 and according to the numbers, I should be in the 124-135bpm range for that, with a max heart rate of 177. However, the sprint training has gotten me to the point that I can trainer ride for a long time at that 18mph pace. Last summer, that pace was around 13-15mph, so it's been a definite improvement in a short period of time. That might also be aided by swapping from my old Shogun 200 to an Ironman.

Staying in zone 2 for that long is tedious and really, I can do other things while I ride. I'm not talking about painting my nails or anything, but I've never been one to watch TV on the trainer, so I read or find other things to do.

I've done the stomping sprints just because of the hill climbs I have to deal with. Most are relatively short but intense and a couple are quite long. I'm aiming for a 15mph pace overall for the race, which would put me at 3:45 for my bike time, comfortably before the 4:20 cutoff time. Am I approaching it the wrong way?

seypat

Your race is a 1/2 IM correct? Which race/course is it? If the course is hilly, it can have a dramatic effect on your overall pace. How is your swimming and running? Cardio wise, swimming is way more taxing than running/cycling to me.

TriBiker19 

Yes, a HIM. It's 70.3 CT. The 56 mile bike has an elevation gain of ~3800'. The area that I live in is similar. My normal 6-mile loop is 410' elevation gain. While it's boring as all get out, I can do that loop a couple of times in a row. I guess if I was to sign up for anything, having a race similar to what I train on is the easiest to deal with. But I really should have read the course description before I signed up. Oops.

My run is currently hampered by an injury I'm seeing PT for, but I'm cleared for swim and bike. My swim is about at the 1:10 cutoff right now, but I'm ramping up training, so I expect to improve on that time.

The course is under the "bike" tab on this page--the crossovers scare me more than the ride itself... https://www.ironman.com/im703-connecticut-course

seypat

I will be 55 in a week and some days. Right now my recommended max HR is around 165. Last year during fall marathon training, I wasn't getting my HR up over 130 on the shorter week runs. One of the coaches and I were talking about it. She thought I was dogging it and needed to up my pace. I started doing my shorter week runs on the treadmill at the gym. I would keep upping the pace until I was in the 145-155 range. I would keep it there until the run was over. The long weekend runs got faster as well. I could hold that faster pace up into the 16-18 mile range. Did it make a difference in my marathon time? Hard to tell. Maybe it did. The runners had a hard, steady headwind for about 8-10 miles of that run. I had to go deep into the reserves to hold my pace into the wind. My legs starting cramping in about the same area they always do. I have to run on a sliding scale pace. The faster the pace, the sooner the cramps. If I get it right, the cramps don't come until around the 25 mile mark. Anyway, here is the main benefit of training above the recommended mark. On race day, the pace you have planned on feels like you are goofing off. It feels like you always have something more in the tank if you need it and you can finish strong. It's a lot better than feeling like you are going to bonk at any moment the whole race.