Bob Dopolina 

We have a customer who is producing some new gravel rims. We got bogged down in how to drill the valve holes.

The options are:
1. Presta
2. Schrader
3. Presta and folks can drill for schrader

We got nowhere. There is a poll. Please chime in.

Koyote

With all due respect: if your customer doesn't know what kind of valves their customers will prefer, then your customer has not done enough market research to proceed.

And a poll on bf is not proper market research.

Moe Zhoost

My preference is Presta, which can always be drilled out. The lower end of the market pretty much demands Schrader so the answer is related to who the ultimate purchasers will be. I agree with Koyote that no poll here is likely to provide the right answer.

Bob Dopolina 

Thanks for your response but, with all due respect, the customer had a position for one choice that had an interesting idea behind it. We suggested another option. The problem is that we both half convinced the other so no decision was made.

As to what constitutes market reseach, a free method of directly contacting and polling end users has its place.

We can also look at the rest of the market place for guidance. We can also float an idea to see if it's worth pursuing. Who knows, there could be a nefarious plot hidden within a simple, innocuous poll on the largest English language cycling specific forum on the planet.

Or maybe not. I mean, who am I to tell you?

shoota 

Does anyone even make tubeless Schrader valves?

Olefeller77 

I bought a Univega at an estate sale that had schrader tubes in Presta drilled wheels. Till then I hadn't realized that one could do that. The valves looked strange only coming through the rims barely enough to get air in. I bought a couple presta tubes on the way home.
Just use the proper tubes with valves that fit.

tFUnK

Ok now I'm curious what the two positions and their rationales were.

Voted presta, BTW.

dsaul

Actually, Yes. https://www.notubes.com/valve-stem-p...32mm-10mm-base

79pmooney

Does this guy want to sell them and make money? If so, Presta is the easy choice. With Schraeder, the salesman is going to have to convince most customers to step away fromo what they have always done. That's going to get old. Salesman's gong to revert to selling rims that don't require the pitch. Being the newcomer means your rims already are extra work for the salesman, Don't make him have to sell a new way of thinking also.

Bob Dopolina 

Actually, it was an old idea that they were toying with.

They wondered about drilling Schader and then installing a rubber grommet that would down size to presta; Pull the grommet to run schrader or leave it in the run presta.

What intrigued me was the idea that the grommet also protected the presta valve from being cut by the rim (from repeated pumping). It could also help seal the rim a bit better from water but that was a minor point.

We suggested just drilling presta but I think part of the drive here, in their minds, was differentiation. They ticked all the boxes in terms of shape, tubeless ready, hookless etc, and they can compete on price, but I think they were trying to find a way to add some other feature that would differentiate them from their competitors.

So, a poll. And some other research. And we drilled a rim, found a grommet and started playing with the setup.

At the the end of the day, we will talk them out of it, but I need to be able to tell them why.

tFUnK

Thanks for the info. Indeed, I have such a rim on my 98 hardtail. My concern with the grommet is I'm afraid I will lose it, either during a tube change or when installing a Schrader tube and misplacing the grommet. The valve stem protection feature is a thought but in my 20 years of cycling I've only had that problem once or twice.

Might the grommet interfere with a tubeless setup?

mstateglfr 

Presta. If someone wants Schrader, they can drill it.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that a significant majority of people who will buy a rim on it's own separate from being a fully built wheel, already utilize presta.

Also, presta is how tubeless is set up so of its drilled for Schrader then it's useless for tubeless...right? Is there Schrader tubeless and if so, why?


I once had some really nice 26er mtb rims that I bought off ebay for cheap. One rim was presta and the other Schrader. It was absurd. I bought a problem solvers insert that is just machined aluminum so I could run presta in both wheels. It worked fine, but was a less than elegant solution.



I'm curious what your client's interest in Schrader is. Perhaps there is a significant market for aftermarket Schrader rims in some area of the world that the many existing entry level choices dont address?
And also curious what the aversion to presta is. The only thing I can think of is a lack of reliable supply for presta tubes based on geographic area where these rims will be sold.


Really interested to hear more and what the ultimate decision is.

Bob Dopolina 

Part of the issue is geographic. These rims will be sold globally but the acceptance for tubeless is not the same in all of the markets involved.

If the rim can accept schrader, then people in some markets can run standard schrader tubes. Tubeless users can use the grommet and things should be fine. This was the original thinking.

In the end, I'm pretty sure we'll convince them to go presta but it was an interesting conversation since it wasn't the foregone conclusion we thought it was.

unterhausen

It seems that some people think Schrader is better for tubeless, but I'm not convinced. It's always a gamble to be on the vanguard of a change like that

ksryder

Not being snarky, but that hasn't been true for like 15 years, right? Back when the MTB guys were all doing DIY tubeless because it wasn't really a thing in the cycling world yet, I know there was a setup involving using a shrader valve and a bunch of gorilla tape. But once the manufactures got on board that's been pretty much abandoned, I thought.

biker128pedal

Not sure how wide the rim is but if too narrow my justify presta for strength.

rosefarts

A Schrader valve screams low end. I'm not even convinced presta works better but its a well known fixture on any bike meant for more than groceries. My guess is that your client could build the finest rim on the market, at the best price point, but if it were Schrader, nobody would want it.

Forget the logical arguments. It's all about appearance. If he's selling to people who at least think they're riding fast, presta. If he's selling to grocery getters, commuters, ride around the park with the kids, Schrader.

obrentharris 

I'm sure a presta valve with a rubber stem must exist somewhere but I've never seen it. All the presta tubes I've used have metal stems so the point about the grommet protecting the presta stem from cuts is moot. Better make sure that a presta valve with grommet will even work for tubeless since the nut that holds the valve in place would compress the grommet causing it to deform.
Brent

unterhausen

The only constant is change. I'm seeing rumblings of people wanting to go to schrader. Some of them are quite adamant about the superiority of schrader. It never would have occurred to me. I occasionally drink beer with some Stan's employees, if that ever happens again I'll ask why they like it. Seems to me that the schrader valve with the core removed isn't any more conducive to flowing sealant through than a presta with the core out. I use a big leur lock syringe with no needle, fits exactly into a presta valve with the core removed

Bob Dopolina 

It's not the valve stem itself that fails. It's where the stem is bonded to the casing. That can be pulled against the edge of the drilled hole and cut, over time. Grommets help with this.

Bob Dopolina 

End result, based on our input and feedback from other markets will be presta, drill for Schrader.

Thanks for the feedback. It helped.

dabac

I’m not sure I understand what failure mode you’re talking about. Do you mean an actual cut through the double-thick rubber in the tube surrounding the base of the valve stem?

ThermionicScott 

All of my family's cars have them...

Bob Dopolina 

Yes.
It's only double thick in certain parts as in where it's bonded to the casing. They can get cut by the edge of the valve hole on the rim, over time.

dabac

Well, if the thickness was uniform throughout the tube, I wouldn’t have called it ”double-thick at the base”.

You know, I’ve never seen that failure mode. And I’ve been doing 6000+ miles/year commuting for at least a decade. Riding year round in a climate where winter means sanded and salted roads, I’ve gone through a number of rims. I’ve happily used whatever that’s been available. Plenty of miles on Presta valves in Schräder drilled rims. Even used some single-wall rims. No bushings or grommets.
All valve stem related failures I’ve seen have been from valves debonding from the rubber. No cuts.
Not saying it can’t happen, but it must require a wicked burr on the edge to occur.