Heathpack 

What are you guys talking about? Trouble producing power while going down what kind of grades?

I guess I have trouble once I spin out and am out of gears. So on steep grades you can't really produce power after a certain point, right? But before that, or on gradual grades, what kind of power are you trying to produce? Something over threshold? I guess I feel like I can produce power downhill just fine but maybe you guys are talking about something more than Id do?

valygrl

Even moderate grades, like 2-3%, are tough for me to see watts even close to LT. The effort feels way harder than my powermeter readout. Does anyone think this could be an artifact of using a powertap rather than a crank based powermeter?

shovelhd

No, I think it's totally within yourself.

happybday29475

Good job HP, LAJ and valygrl on getting out there, and also on all the hard preparation all of you have done...it will pay off...

The only racing I've been doing is vicarious racing through you all...I feel the frustration in the coulda shoulda woulda's...but this stuff isn't easy, is it? (If it was, they'd charge hundreds of dollars more, and put "iron" in the name, right? )

My feeling is that each of you is stronger than you realize...and I'm hopeful that each of you is climbing toward a carve-your-enemies-hearts-out-and-offer-it-to-the-gods-while-still-beating victory! (Yes, I spent spring break with the Aztecs).

happybday29475

Contrary to other's experiences, I always put out more watts when going downhill. I can't really figure out why...but it makes me smile...and I think that's why.

Seriously.

At 200 watts, or whatever, and the road:

A) goes down:
speed goes up, wind noise increase, thrill increases, excitement goes up...watts go up.

B) goes up:
uggg, this is hard, I'm not going anywhere, this hurts...watts go down.

(Same effect for me with headwinds/tailwinds)


Possibly relatedly, I'm a spinner, and comfortable at higher cadences...this also could factor in.

Heathpack 

I'm kind of like this too. I love going downhill fast. I can get full power going downhill without too much trouble. Love love love it.

LAJ

Thank you shovelhd.

Nicely explained.

LAJ

Thank you @rapwithtom.

Power would get there, but it did take a bit to spool up. I think @shovelhd may have hit on something.

Course, the next tt is a hang on to your hat, 55+ mph downhill, so I'm not sure if I can put that into practice for more than a couple seconds. I will be putting that into practice on the regular races though.

globecanvas

Agree.

To me, there are few feelings in the world better than barely surviving to the top of a hill, then immediately winding it up over the top and down. For whatever reason, I can struggle to make FTP all the way up a 12 minute hill but have no problem immediately doing FTP+100 on the downhill. It just feels so good to push on the pedals and have it translate into more speed rather than just more suffering.

I'm rambling now, but last fall I did a competitive 100 mi/10k ft ride with a group that included some national reputation type climbers. I was the lanterne rouge up the last climb and mentally just completely done for the day, but on the long descent one of the big name guys wound it way up and there's no word to describe the feeling except "joyous". Even after 6 hours on the bike, the group was absolutely hammering down the hill at 50 mph and everybody was giddy and laughing. Just a minute earlier, tempo was agony, but I was putting out ftp+200 on the downhill and loving it.

valygrl

yeah, that's what i thought. looking for an excuse.

Heathpack 

This is exactly how I feel. I very specifically love that feeling of accelerating as you crest a hill and then flying off from there. I have a friend who not only likes to coast down hill, but he likes to stop at the top and savor the moment. I irritate him because I'll pass him as we come over the top and take off down hill. I tell him to just go ahead and stop at the top, we can regroup at the bottom. But he can't, lol, because he wants to beat me down the hill. Which he pretty much always can, because he has good bike handling skills and out-weighs me by 80 pounds (although I am way more aero).

FTP + 100 or 200 watts, though?? That I cannot do that. And it depends on the hill, I seem to get the best power going on a long straight 2% downhill, that is awesome especially with other people. Because the bigger people start to lose their weight advantage and you can start beating people who are *sure* that they will leave you in the dust. I love that moment of shock when they realize I'm there.

globecanvas

Hear hear! On the power, not for any length of time but sure. Note the ride time at the bottom. This is with probably 350 TSS already in. I could barely turn the pedals going uphill just minutes before.

sarals 

In case I didn't say it, great racing by all of you - LAJ, Heathpack and Valygrl!

Shovel, that tip gave me something to think about.

I had thought I made less power going downhill than up, but I don't. I make slightly more. FTP? I don't know, I think so, maybe above, because recovery is a little easier and more complete.

I wish I had some race reports to share, but I'm not going to for a while. My crazy schedule is causing me to miss most of the early season mass-start races I want to do. I'm going to be darned hesitant when I finally get into one in June. I do have a TT coming up in a couple of weeks. Sea Otter? No. Way.

Hermes

@globecanvas Beast mode

Hermes

Everyone has their "opinion" on power production downhill v uphill v TT bike v track bike and etc.

IMO, it is all about practice. The more one practices anything, the better one gets. It is mental, neurological and metabolic plus some muscle composition sauce to spice it up. If one wants to get better at foul shots in basketball then one must practice. Players who say they cannot do it, do not practice enough. Granted, talent for a particular shot is important but everyone can improve.

My downhill power was poor when I first got my PM and for the first time realized that it was lower - duh...who would have thought. After I worked on maintaining power downhill, I improved. I just shift into a bigger gear and push harder on the pedals.

However, I think motor pacing helps a lot since one is forced to keep up with the motor and efforts are always overspeed. In fact, one can practice simulated motor pacing by riding on a slight downhill. The grade acts like a motor.

Hermes

Congrats to all that have been racing.

shovelhd

BTW, I love motorpacing. I I could do it for every workout, I would. There's nothing like it.

Hermes

I agree but there are a lot of coaches who do not like the motor. One coach last week at the track said he thought the US coaches used the motor too much because the Brits use it very sparingly. Of course the other coach countered with his points.

I observe workouts of others at the track under the direct supervision of track coaches with a successful and long record with athletes. They use the motor for both endurance and sprint racers. Having said that, one has to practice pushing the wind and riding just behind the motor is just too easy unless the sole focus is increasing neurology (leg speed) or the motor is going really fast.

However, most experienced coaches that use the motor, use it to maintain speed of a pace line and or pack and racers do drills on and off the motor to provide more challenge and enhance skills at or above race pace.

But yes, I will always go to a session with a motor and an experienced coach running the session over pushing the wind solo. They are just much more fun and that keeps me in the game.

Racer Ex 

Did the Franktown TT Tuesday night. Raced the "A" against the kids. We have a pretty stout group of TT folks here, dopers excluded, several Cat 1 folks and the two guys who run Trainer Road among them.

The Washoe Zephyr was out in full force, which meant that part of the TT was ridden at a 15 degree angle to the ground. On a positive note the new H3+ front wheel wasn't horrible, on a negative note I couldn't get my HR past 150 for the first half of the TT and barely nudged it over at the end. So my pacing strategy got tossed out the window and I was in "just survive and don't get passed" mode. Still rode 29 mph in that nasty crosswind heading out.

I passed people. I did not get passed. No results posted yet but at 17:41 I held serve against the kids, there were a half dozen of us in the 17 minute range and most of us clustered around 17:30.

I believe it may be time to send my SRM in for service (been 3+ years), or I am crazy aero. Like way crazy aero. Not sure what's up with the HR, but going to race again tonight and see how it goes.

sarals 

TT miester....

Nice work, Ex. HR strap a little wonky, maybe?

YogaKat

Good job Ex, hope you did well last night too.

Racer Ex 

Fredricksburg Prologue: Much better technical ride last night. Hadn't ridden the course before, it's 8.4 miles out and back, mostly climbing into a 10-20 MPH gusting headwind going out. Mellow group, not a lot of full TT rigs, big group of juniors looking at the BMC with google eyes. 6-7 "A" riders.

Temp dropped into the high 40's by time we got going, so I was bundled up a bit more than usual. And I had left my TT bag sitting by the garage door (did some repairs on my helmet) so I was stuck wearing my road helmet, a bandana under that, and my coldish weather booties. Not optimum.

Also had tweaked my saddle nose up a fraction, noticed that I was sliding forward the other night; hadn't been an issue with my old skin suit but the new clothes showed up and the new skin suit is slippery. Little stuff.

Started off much less aggressively knowing I had a lot of climbing ahead, HR still slow to come up initially but eventually moved up a bit from Tuesday night. Strap is fine, it's me. Same kind of weirdness as the other night, disconnect on the effort/breathing/HR but I didn't blow up as bad and kept the breathing under control. Started catching folks on the climb, caught my 30s guy just after the turn, then passed another 15 or so riders on the way in. Got close to spinning out on the downhill. The faster I go the better this bike works. Did not get passed

Official results not out yet, but quick glance looks like I had fast time. Mostly happy I got my head screwed on a bit better, and wondering if the cold/wind is part of the slow response thing and/or I just need more warm up. Looked at some past files this year and I'm not hitting 160's until an hour or more into some of these rides.

Heathpack 

Nice TTs, @Racer Ex. I'm a little jealous that you have two weeknight TTs to ride locally. I'm going to have to talk someone into doing that here in town eventually.

I'm not a huge fan of wind. But 42F is my favorite temp for any kind of intense effort.

shovelhd

Funny. Summertime crits were always my best. When everyone else is wilting, I'm loving it. Pre and post hydration is key.

Heathpack 

I am possibly a little too well-insulated to be at my best in the heat.