gycho77

So i found an article(I do not remember the cite)about 650c track bike. They said that it's stiffer and more responsive than 700c track bike.
Did anyone tried 650c track bike set up?
Also they said that 650c track bike is the best set up for track.
Do you think this is true?

Sorry for asking many questions. I do not have a friend that who is interested in bike or track bike.

gtrob

We have 650c bikes at our track. They are like 41cm frames that we put 10 year olds on

carleton

Where is this article and who is "they"

If it were so, then you'd see more competitive racers on 650c bikes.

There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to stiffness being a factor. Basically, stiff enough is stiff enough. Stiffer than that doesn't make one faster. The current selection of 700c bikes (steel, aluminum, and carbon) are stiff enough. The only riders who really need to make sure that their bikes are stiffer than normal are men and women with legs like these:



There are no real upsides to having a 650c bike. Some might argue that there are some aero benefits being that the rider is closer to the ground and there are less spokes chopping up air. But, those benefits are small.

The downsides are huge, mainly being the very small selection of 650c frames, race wheels, and tires.

Think of it this way: If 650c were even marginally faster, you'd see them being raced at the highest levels of the sport where championships are won and lost by the smallest of margins.

Even the shorter riders like Sandie Clair (5ft 3in) ride 700c frames.

gtrob

The wheels would be more aero, I guess, but the BB height has to be a certain height still, which means the rider would be just as high.

And like you said, people are not losing races today because their wheels are not stiff enough. Those mavics are stronger than humans.

wens

Although on the short people note, I wonder if vogels rides different bikes for mass start vs time events because the geometry is easy to screw up for bikes that small.

carleton

That's a good question.

I'd imagine that her sprint bike uses a fork with a longer offset than the other FES sprint bikes being that when the TT has to be shortened to like 50cm, sprint forks bring the front wheel into an unacceptable toe overlap area. So, to compensate, bike manufacturers usually pick a different fork for their extra small sprint frames.

For example, for the LOOK L96 Sprint frame, the normal fork has a 34mm offset, but for the 49 (extra extra small) and 51cm (extra small) TT variants, they use a 43mm offset fork. You can find a 43mm offset fork on crit bikes like a Specialized Tarmac.

dunderhi

Hey, wait a minute my wife's two roads bikes have 650 wheels!

That said, her tire choices are extremely limited. I'm back to riding silk tires (just like in the old days) on my track bike. The silks are hard enough to find in 700c, I suspect silks don't even exist in 650c.

carleton

I once found a Mavic Io for like $500 on craigslist. I thought I'd hit the jackpot. It was a 650 ...I passed on it.

taras0000

Maybe that was the universe telling you to get a custom made 650c track bike.

carleton

Ha!

gycho77

I cannot find the article about the 650c track bike, but I found similar posts.
Part 1: 650c Project Bike - Slowtwitch.com
Part 2: 650c Project Bike - 2 - Slowtwitch.com

650c wheelset review
HED: Hed Jet 6 (650c) Ride Review - Slowtwitch.com
Zipp: Zipp 404 650c Ride Report - Slowtwitch.com


Aero benefit of 650c wheel based on Zipp wheelset
You can find this information in 4th link

taras0000

Slowtwitch is mostly all about TryAthletes and when it come to bikes and gear, I wouldn't trust their opinions. You can find them talking about cycling related things that were debunked years/sometimes decades ago. If you had to classify the general cycling population as to their ability and knowledge on cycling it would go something like this 1)Track cyclists (there are many reasons for this), 2)Mountain bikers (for many of the same reasons as track cylists), 3)Road cyclists (you don't need to know much to ride on the road), 4)Children who hang outside of the local velodrome, and 5)triathletes.

Seriously though, don't take bike advice from triathletes. All that will end up happening is you'll become a triathlete.

gycho77

haha Thank you for your advice.
Maybe I should stop believing random information.
Thank you for correcting me

brawlo

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO the internet will implode!!!!!!!!!!!

gycho77

Ha!

Baby Puke

Fav quote for a while!

carleton

This post is pure gold.

Yeah...as stated above, triathletes are the suckers of the bike industry. They are easily wooed into thinking that the latest-greatest thing will buy them minutes off of their swim, bike, and/or run times.

They will:
- Pretty much buy any untested product.
- Wear anything with the word "compression" on the packaging.
- Buy anything that weighs less than the previous year's product (no matter how much less...I'm talking if it's a $15K bike that weighs 2 ounces less...SOLD)
- Ride head-down in aerobars in rush hour traffic during their commute home as "training"
- Ride head-down in aerobars in a group ride.
- Shirk in terror and slam on the brakes if you ride within 4 feet alongside them on a road or cycling trail.

If you want to watch something hilarious, watch a "sprint triathlon" where the bike portion is similar to a crit and they have to ride in packs using drop bars (with clip on aero extension). Did I mention that they have to turn corners?

rensho3

My wife is 5'1", had a custom TT built for her in 1998 with 650 wheels because she just couldn't get a 700 frame that felt good to her. I guess she liked it because she won a Master's World Championship at 2K on it. We still have it; it is hanging on the wall and she has since moved to a carbon frame that just.... fits her in 700. The biggest problem, besides the 650 tires, was remembering to look at the custom gear chart for the 650 wheels that I put together just for her. When we rode the same events, if I made a mistake (I as the machine nerd set up her gears for her) the results were not pretty. We are looking for a deserving junior to sell the 650, along with Zipp 650 front and rear disks, and 404 front wheel to, if you know anyone who needs such a rig. Price will be incredibly discounted (maybe even intergalacticly incredible discounted).

gycho77

Wow!! you should not sell the bike. It's a master's world champion's bike!!!
I should sell my track bike, and purchase your wife's bike. haha
I wish I could see that amazing bike.

How did you solve the bb drop problem?

gycho77

I could not believe I was believing the informations

carleton

They aren't all like that. I'm exaggerating. But, when it comes to cycling, many really believe that they can buy speed...and bike manufacturers or bike shops aren't saying otherwise

I once went to a LBS in VA that catered to the tri crowd. One of the fitters placed top 10 in the Seoul Olympics in the Kilo...so I was always picking his brain... Anyway, they had a Specilized Shiv in there. This bike:



Except the bars had, I KID YOU NOT, like at least 10 inches of riser blocks under them. The poor owner would have been better off riding a standard road bike with 44cm drop bars (he would have been more comfortable and just as "aero").

When I looked at my buddy and gestured towards the bike, he just shrugged and said that it was for some "tri guy".

Logic really goes out the windows with that crowd sometimes...

On a related note, he told me of one of the more successful older masters triathletes who would race using a standard road bike...and slay her opponents. Here is where common sense wins races

carleton

Further...

I rip on triatletes a lot. But, they approach their sport differently than other cycling genres. Most cycling (BMX, track, road, MTB, CX...) is a "me vs them" or "man vs man" type of competition. Triathlons are generally 3 time trials back-to-back (swimming TT, cycling TT, running TT) and there is less focus on the opponent(s) and more inward TT focusing, so "Me vs Me". So, they don't really train pack racing skills like drafting, positioning, etc... (actually drafting is illegal in most triathlons). These skills are core to road, crit, and track racing. And excellent bike handling in general is key to BMX, MTB, and CX. This is sorta why they freak out when you meet dedicated tri geeks on a bike path. (This is also why there seems to be a direct correlation between BMX and track sprinting...100% efforts, close quarters, etc...)

Also, it seems like more lifelong runners migrate to triathlons than lifelong swimmers or cyclists. So, cycling is more of a "necessary evil" to some. I've heard some explain that they setup their bikes to feel like they are running.

So, they are just weird people to me

queerpunk

my training buddy and i have a joke about triathletes: what's the hardest part of a triathlon?

law school.

apparently Specialized designed the Shiv to have a tall headtube - to have high handlebars. if you think about it, most recreationally competitive triathletes probably don't really do much bike training. not compared to a bike racer. they're not going to get fit and re-fit, and work to strengthen the core to hold a really aggressively aerodynamic position; they're not going to figure out where their power drops off. they have two other sports to focus on, too. and, i also wonder if a lot of triathletes take aesthetic cues from ironman competitors, who, since they're doing a 100mi TT, are setting up positions that they can hold for 4+ hours (rather than a bike racer TTist who is setting up something for a much, much, much shorter time trial and so is focused on power and aerodynamics, not the extent to which they can hold a position).

so there are shortcuts. and there are things that to us don't make sense.

that said, olympic triathlons are much more interesting - they're draft legal, so the bike leg is a lot more like a bike race. gwen jorgenson, the subject of the video below, is a member of my community - races some cx races, married to someone i used to race against, etc. she's a damn fine athlete and a good bike rider, too.

this video made (olympic) tris a lot more interesting to me... but all of the ribbing about more casual triathletes is still ok...

https://vimeo.com/123057740

taras0000

I wouldn't worry too much about it. When I was young and starting into track cycling, I had a similar mindset. I was a Junior racer who was much stronger than the other kids around me. Not when it came to road racing, but on the track. It was easy to "self coach" for a while, and because I like to read and research, I was looking at anything and everything that i thought might give me an advantage when it came to racing outside of my stomping grounds. Luckily I had a father who had a pretty good bull**** meter and I soon was able to separate what would likely work and was sensible, versus what might work, and would be a waste of time.

gycho77

Haha Very funny.

Thank you for your explanation