Fairly certain LBS damaged my frame, am I crazy?
#51
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The responsible bike shop could consider this an opportunity to improve their game by tackling the job of rolling out frame dents.
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Be firm. Ask them to show you that the dents don't line up with the clamps on their repair stands. They should either be happy to oblige or they are less stellar than you think they are.
The good news is that seat tube dents are easier to straighten than dents in other tubes because you can drive the appropriately sized mandrel into the tube from the top while clamping the outside of the tube between blocks. There will be paint damage from all that movement (some cracking at the very least) and probably some residual small dents.
Brent
The good news is that seat tube dents are easier to straighten than dents in other tubes because you can drive the appropriately sized mandrel into the tube from the top while clamping the outside of the tube between blocks. There will be paint damage from all that movement (some cracking at the very least) and probably some residual small dents.
Brent
Last edited by obrentharris; 09-20-20 at 10:43 PM. Reason: clarity
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1). Express your concerns to the business owner in writing, documenting all conversations you have had with him and his employees. Stick to the facts and state what you want him to do to restore you, and why you feel that any previous oral conversations have been unsatisfactory to you. Don’t speculate about, e.g., the cause of the damage. Just state (if true) that the bike was not damaged when you gave it to them but now it is.
2) Wait some reasonable period for a response. If nothing acceptable results, file in Small Claims Court. Do not harass the shop further yourself.
3). Do not, under any circumstances, slander the business by posting defamatory rants in public, including social media. This will be used against you and undermine your credibility in a he said-he said case.
4). Do not say or do anything that could be construed as “uttering threats”, including threats to prosecute or litigate. This could land you in a heap of expensive legal trouble. Do not in your letter state, for example, that if he doesn’t fix your frame you “will be forced to take legal action”. That’s a threat. Just do it.
5). Do not discuss this case anywhere, including here, again. You either have a case or you don’t. Blabbing it all over town doesn’t strengthen it, even though you have stuck to reasonable, temperate language yourself. “All my friends think I’m right,” doesn’t carry any weight. Do collect neutral opinions from experts like a frame builder who gives an estimate to repair damage.
6). You might still lose. And even if you win, you might not be able to collect. “The law is an ass,” as Dickens said.
2) Wait some reasonable period for a response. If nothing acceptable results, file in Small Claims Court. Do not harass the shop further yourself.
3). Do not, under any circumstances, slander the business by posting defamatory rants in public, including social media. This will be used against you and undermine your credibility in a he said-he said case.
4). Do not say or do anything that could be construed as “uttering threats”, including threats to prosecute or litigate. This could land you in a heap of expensive legal trouble. Do not in your letter state, for example, that if he doesn’t fix your frame you “will be forced to take legal action”. That’s a threat. Just do it.
5). Do not discuss this case anywhere, including here, again. You either have a case or you don’t. Blabbing it all over town doesn’t strengthen it, even though you have stuck to reasonable, temperate language yourself. “All my friends think I’m right,” doesn’t carry any weight. Do collect neutral opinions from experts like a frame builder who gives an estimate to repair damage.
6). You might still lose. And even if you win, you might not be able to collect. “The law is an ass,” as Dickens said.
Last edited by conspiratemus1; 09-20-20 at 11:52 PM.
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I do think a clamp was responsible for this, but of a different design - one capable of producing enough torque to flatten the tubes easily and V-shaped groove that'd explain the pronounced dents at each end.
The Park 100-7X seems like a possible candidate, and the micro-adjust version - which seems popular for shops to use with CF bikes now - also has a crank design that is more likely to provide way too much mechanical advantage for the repair person with oatmeal for brains. It also fails on having a truly curved main clamping surface.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 09-21-20 at 07:53 AM.
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Was it RC in the UD?
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Question unrelated to solving your problem (I'm just curious): Is it a 1974 Super Tourer? If so, one of the coolest bikes of its type ever! Always rare even back then, and super rare now. To find one in such nice condition, only to have it marred like that – augh! The whole cycling world is a little poorer now. I weep for your bike (OK not really, it's a metaphor).
I can't tell what you mean by two more dents in back – are the back dents higher up? That could be from closing the clamp of a bike stand while the bike is at an angle to the jaws.
Unhelpful anecdote: I worked at a bike shop in the '70s that had pneumatic bike stands – you pushed a button near the floor with your foot, and air pressure closed the jaws. The pressure was adjustable, and we turned it up for heavy bikes and down for lightweights. We got in a fancy Reynolds 753 frame, and the shop owner insisted on working on it himself. He didn't do mechanic work very often, and he was out of practice – forgot about the pressure adjustment. You guessed it, the previous bike had been a Schwinn heavyweight, and the 753 seat tube crumped something awful. We all looked away real quick and suddenly got super interested in whatever we were doing. Don't make eye contact! I think if anyone had laughed he would have gotten fired.
As far as something actually helpful – I have a Park professional stand, the most common type in bike shops. We could see if the jaws line up with the dents, if you want to come over (I'm in Wallingford). But I'm sure that's the first thing R+E will do if you bring it to them, so a trip to my house might be a waste of time. I guess I just really want to see it.
Good luck man, I'm really hoping this turns out OK. I know those dents can be rolled out, and though it will wreck the paint, they can just shoot the damaged area – including the two-tone and the gold striping. Very good repros of the Carlton decal are available too, so it might come out close to good as new.
Mark B in Seattle
I can't tell what you mean by two more dents in back – are the back dents higher up? That could be from closing the clamp of a bike stand while the bike is at an angle to the jaws.
Unhelpful anecdote: I worked at a bike shop in the '70s that had pneumatic bike stands – you pushed a button near the floor with your foot, and air pressure closed the jaws. The pressure was adjustable, and we turned it up for heavy bikes and down for lightweights. We got in a fancy Reynolds 753 frame, and the shop owner insisted on working on it himself. He didn't do mechanic work very often, and he was out of practice – forgot about the pressure adjustment. You guessed it, the previous bike had been a Schwinn heavyweight, and the 753 seat tube crumped something awful. We all looked away real quick and suddenly got super interested in whatever we were doing. Don't make eye contact! I think if anyone had laughed he would have gotten fired.
As far as something actually helpful – I have a Park professional stand, the most common type in bike shops. We could see if the jaws line up with the dents, if you want to come over (I'm in Wallingford). But I'm sure that's the first thing R+E will do if you bring it to them, so a trip to my house might be a waste of time. I guess I just really want to see it.
Good luck man, I'm really hoping this turns out OK. I know those dents can be rolled out, and though it will wreck the paint, they can just shoot the damaged area – including the two-tone and the gold striping. Very good repros of the Carlton decal are available too, so it might come out close to good as new.
Mark B in Seattle
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Yup. 74 Super Tourer, pretty much stock except for tires (it has a B66 instead of the mattress saddle as well) One of the only bikes I know of to break the "stem shifters = low end" rule. No idea who was responsible for speccing it, but it was at least 30 years ahead of its time, given how many kids I see on flat bar roar bikes with nice crmo frames. Got it as a winter/city bike, since I'm not going to be doing much "super touring" on a bike with upright bars and no bottle cage bosses...
Also much as I love the paint, I love the frame more. It has some decal wear and odd marks on the stays (likely from an old rack) anyway, so any paint damage can always hold off for any future restoration.
Besides, paint damage from repair is beausage or something. Or so I've heard.
Also much as I love the paint, I love the frame more. It has some decal wear and odd marks on the stays (likely from an old rack) anyway, so any paint damage can always hold off for any future restoration.
Besides, paint damage from repair is beausage or something. Or so I've heard.
Last edited by sheddle; 09-21-20 at 12:54 AM.
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In case they need to take the cranks off to do the repair (likely), be sure to tell them about the odd 23.35 mm extractor thread on those cranks. R+E is probably pretty safe in general, but you don't know if every mechanic there knows it, or more to the point the one guy or gal who works on your bike. Even when I worked there (early '80s) not everyone knew that stuff, and now it's got 40 more years of obsoleteness.
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Beausage is in the eye of the beholder. If you hate the damaged area because it brings back bad memories, that ain't beausage.
In case they need to take the cranks off to do the repair (likely), be sure to tell them about the odd 23.35 mm extractor thread on those cranks. R+E is probably pretty safe in general, but you don't know if every mechanic there knows it, or more to the point the one guy or gal who works on your bike. Even when I worked there (early '80s) not everyone knew that stuff, and now it's got 40 more years of obsoleteness.
In case they need to take the cranks off to do the repair (likely), be sure to tell them about the odd 23.35 mm extractor thread on those cranks. R+E is probably pretty safe in general, but you don't know if every mechanic there knows it, or more to the point the one guy or gal who works on your bike. Even when I worked there (early '80s) not everyone knew that stuff, and now it's got 40 more years of obsoleteness.
Welcome to threadless, cartridge, disposable, cookie cutter crapfest that is many of today's bike shops.
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And don't get me wrong, change is of course inevitable.
What does not have to be inevitable is the loss of the skill gained by learning how to work on more things will make you better at working on all things.
The skill of being able to work through what you don't know without breaking, kludging or ruining, parts, tools, pieces or flesh without just replacing things can be invaluable, success begets success, simply replacing parts does not.
What does not have to be inevitable is the loss of the skill gained by learning how to work on more things will make you better at working on all things.
The skill of being able to work through what you don't know without breaking, kludging or ruining, parts, tools, pieces or flesh without just replacing things can be invaluable, success begets success, simply replacing parts does not.
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If the dents were really already there when they received the bike, you'd think that a good shop that deals with a lot of older bikes would have pointed it out as a possible reason not to ride, thus for them not to work on the bike.
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Wow that sucks. You bought it on Friday and it gets damaged on Saturday?
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The very first time I tried to restore a bike it was a PX10 that I got from an elderly couple for under $100. Brought it to my co-op and they took one glance at it, noticed a small but serious enough dent on the seat tube and told me that they wouldn’t advise putting much money and effort into it, and really wouldn’t ride it either.
To imagine any reputable shop wouldn’t notice such massive damage and point it out before starting the work is surprising and unfortunate.
To imagine any reputable shop wouldn’t notice such massive damage and point it out before starting the work is surprising and unfortunate.
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I took a bike there only last week and they pointed out that it wasn't safe to ride hard anymore, due to a hairline crack in the seat tube that I missed due to surface rust and dirt (OS Tange Prestige, light as hell, but ride it hard for long enough...)
Which is to say that I think this was probably a case where the first mechanic to touch the bike inadvertently dented it without realizing, and the others assumed it was already there. When multiple people perform a task, you do get the chance for errors like this. Kind of a bystander effect where everyone assumes someone else already noticed the problem, but I'm kind of theorizing here.
Which is to say that I think this was probably a case where the first mechanic to touch the bike inadvertently dented it without realizing, and the others assumed it was already there. When multiple people perform a task, you do get the chance for errors like this. Kind of a bystander effect where everyone assumes someone else already noticed the problem, but I'm kind of theorizing here.
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About a decade ago I responded to an ad and went to purchase a Raleigh Professional Mk IV in a San Francisco shop that was advertised as being in very good condition. Upon inspection I pointed out two, long double-crimped areas on the seat tube just like this, which were obviously caused by a frame stand, and the shop owner was really surprised that they hadn't noticed it before. He considered it a major blow to the value of the bike and if I remember correctly gave me 1/3 off the asking price and threw in a second Mk IV frame set that was in great condition but had previously been repainted, without even batting an eyelash. At that point half of the components were worth more so I took it without question.
Whether it was due to work done in his shop or prior to his purchasing it (he blamed the old guy he'd bought it from and himself for not noticing) at least he was honest about it... Apparently you are not dealing with folk of the same ilk, and I wish you luck!
-Gregory
Whether it was due to work done in his shop or prior to his purchasing it (he blamed the old guy he'd bought it from and himself for not noticing) at least he was honest about it... Apparently you are not dealing with folk of the same ilk, and I wish you luck!
-Gregory
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One of the rules of retail is that you have to put as much effort into protecting yourself from your customers as you do making them happy. The shop owner likely will never know for sure what happened here, unless a tech ‘fesses up. But he has interests to protect.
So, if you go the Small Claims route, you need to anticipate what the shop owner will tell the judge:
Customer brings a beat-up old clunker in for some trivial bogus repair — greasing a seatpost?, wtf? The tech notices the dented seat tube and, to avoid being tricked into being blamed for pre-existing damage, pulls the post by leaving the bike standing on its tires, sitting over the rear wheel, and pulling straight up. No ZZZ-marks on the post. Smear a little grease on and stick ‘er back in. Bob’s your uncle, no clamp used at any point and that’s God’s honest truth. So buzz off, customer. Go cheat someone else. (Oh, and by the way, I’ve reinforced with my techs that they must document damage on arrival. Yes we know it’s hard to know what counts as damage on 40-year-old clunkers, but win or lose, this case is a learning experience: the more we can document, the better off we are in disputes.)
As I’ve said above, don’t argue this point here. Save it for the judge.
So, if you go the Small Claims route, you need to anticipate what the shop owner will tell the judge:
Customer brings a beat-up old clunker in for some trivial bogus repair — greasing a seatpost?, wtf? The tech notices the dented seat tube and, to avoid being tricked into being blamed for pre-existing damage, pulls the post by leaving the bike standing on its tires, sitting over the rear wheel, and pulling straight up. No ZZZ-marks on the post. Smear a little grease on and stick ‘er back in. Bob’s your uncle, no clamp used at any point and that’s God’s honest truth. So buzz off, customer. Go cheat someone else. (Oh, and by the way, I’ve reinforced with my techs that they must document damage on arrival. Yes we know it’s hard to know what counts as damage on 40-year-old clunkers, but win or lose, this case is a learning experience: the more we can document, the better off we are in disputes.)
As I’ve said above, don’t argue this point here. Save it for the judge.
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Looks like they gilcoed your seat tube (sorry, couldn't resist...). But I think using scarlson's suggestion it could be corrected.
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One of the rules of retail is that you have to put as much effort into protecting yourself from your customers as you do making them happy. The shop owner likely will never know for sure what happened here, unless a tech ‘fesses up. But he has interests to protect.
So, if you go the Small Claims route, you need to anticipate what the shop owner will tell the judge:
Customer brings a beat-up old clunker in for some trivial bogus repair — greasing a seatpost?, wtf? The tech notices the dented seat tube and, to avoid being tricked into being blamed for pre-existing damage, pulls the post by leaving the bike standing on its tires, sitting over the rear wheel, and pulling straight up. No ZZZ-marks on the post. Smear a little grease on and stick ‘er back in. Bob’s your uncle, no clamp used at any point and that’s God’s honest truth. So buzz off, customer. Go cheat someone else. (Oh, and by the way, I’ve reinforced with my techs that they must document damage on arrival. Yes we know it’s hard to know what counts as damage on 40-year-old clunkers, but win or lose, this case is a learning experience: the more we can document, the better off we are in disputes.)
As I’ve said above, don’t argue this point here. Save it for the judge.
So, if you go the Small Claims route, you need to anticipate what the shop owner will tell the judge:
Customer brings a beat-up old clunker in for some trivial bogus repair — greasing a seatpost?, wtf? The tech notices the dented seat tube and, to avoid being tricked into being blamed for pre-existing damage, pulls the post by leaving the bike standing on its tires, sitting over the rear wheel, and pulling straight up. No ZZZ-marks on the post. Smear a little grease on and stick ‘er back in. Bob’s your uncle, no clamp used at any point and that’s God’s honest truth. So buzz off, customer. Go cheat someone else. (Oh, and by the way, I’ve reinforced with my techs that they must document damage on arrival. Yes we know it’s hard to know what counts as damage on 40-year-old clunkers, but win or lose, this case is a learning experience: the more we can document, the better off we are in disputes.)
As I’ve said above, don’t argue this point here. Save it for the judge.
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Op,
Your header asks did they do the damage and are you crazy....Why do you seem to be equivocating about whether or not the dents were not there when you brought it into the shop and wondering if it was something that you did on the way in. I think you would have noticed damage like that before you brought it in....you have the pics from a few days before you brought it in to be worked on....did you damage it, only you know if you mishandled it.
From all of your posts, it seems to me that the shop did the deed, not you.
For those of you that think a repair stand cant damage a frame, I want to post a few pics of a frame that one of my friends brought in for repair...I think an older Park Pro stand with the preset clamping etc.
The bike was "not" damaged when it was brought in and here are a few pics....I suspect as one other member mentioned that the damage occurred when using twisting force to remove the seatpost....either that or as others stated clamp force was set improperly for a different tube diameter.
IMHO no vacuum pressure from removing the seat post.
Here are some pics of my friend's bike....BTW he brought the damage to the LBS right away and they chalked it up to a new tech not familiar with vintage stuff and paid for a replacement Prologue frame.
Clamp installed incorrectly
same, same..torque force..I think you can see the 2 offset dents much worse than your frame experienced?
Make them take care of it.
Good Luck, Ben
Your header asks did they do the damage and are you crazy....Why do you seem to be equivocating about whether or not the dents were not there when you brought it into the shop and wondering if it was something that you did on the way in. I think you would have noticed damage like that before you brought it in....you have the pics from a few days before you brought it in to be worked on....did you damage it, only you know if you mishandled it.
From all of your posts, it seems to me that the shop did the deed, not you.
For those of you that think a repair stand cant damage a frame, I want to post a few pics of a frame that one of my friends brought in for repair...I think an older Park Pro stand with the preset clamping etc.
The bike was "not" damaged when it was brought in and here are a few pics....I suspect as one other member mentioned that the damage occurred when using twisting force to remove the seatpost....either that or as others stated clamp force was set improperly for a different tube diameter.
IMHO no vacuum pressure from removing the seat post.
Here are some pics of my friend's bike....BTW he brought the damage to the LBS right away and they chalked it up to a new tech not familiar with vintage stuff and paid for a replacement Prologue frame.
Clamp installed incorrectly
same, same..torque force..I think you can see the 2 offset dents much worse than your frame experienced?
Make them take care of it.
Good Luck, Ben
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#72
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"It was like that when you brought it in here" is how Bart Simpson would address making that mistake and shows a similar level of maturity on the part of the mechanics that worked on your bike.
At the Bike Exchange I've used Park workstands a lot and it is hard to imagine over-clamping like that when just closing the clamp. However, I think manhandling the bike once it is clamped in the workstand could result in damage that looks just like what you have there.
But the tube is bent, not broken, and repair is possible. Recently I removed most of a dent from a 531DB top tube without paint damage recently by applying a thin plastic tape over the area to be repaired and, rather than rolling the tube in the frame block, I would tighten the block, then loosen and rotate it 45 degrees, tighten it again, rotate another 45 deg., and again and again. Taking a cue from a paintless dent removal guy who fixed my car, I also warmed the area up with a heat gun first to help make the paint a little more pliable.
Best of luck!
At the Bike Exchange I've used Park workstands a lot and it is hard to imagine over-clamping like that when just closing the clamp. However, I think manhandling the bike once it is clamped in the workstand could result in damage that looks just like what you have there.
But the tube is bent, not broken, and repair is possible. Recently I removed most of a dent from a 531DB top tube without paint damage recently by applying a thin plastic tape over the area to be repaired and, rather than rolling the tube in the frame block, I would tighten the block, then loosen and rotate it 45 degrees, tighten it again, rotate another 45 deg., and again and again. Taking a cue from a paintless dent removal guy who fixed my car, I also warmed the area up with a heat gun first to help make the paint a little more pliable.
Best of luck!
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There are pluses and minuses to using a shop mechanic, but it's not categorically a mistake at all times for all people.
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especially one who lives in an apartment with zero space for a repair stand, and little ability to do work involving anything likely to stain a carpet, hah
#75
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,167
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
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I've heard of this damage occurring from loosening a track-style axle nut while in the stand.
In this case, I somewhat suspect that my own tight-seatpost remedy method may have been used while the bike was in the stand.
My method for fixing a tight-fitting seatpost where the ears may have been over-tightened inward is to put the seatpost into the frame about 3/4" in and then lean rearward on the post/lever to move the ears back out. This might produce dents in the seat tube with the rear dents being further up on the tube than the front dents.
For the record, I don't do any kind of forceful work on a bike mounted on a stand, ever.
Scarlson's idea of using a sized wooden dowel is how I would deal with this, followed by a more precisely-sized metal tube such as a seatpost remnant attached solidly to an extension. This would be equivalent to "rolling out the dents" from the inside, but less trauma on the paint and the metal. Perhaps also the dents could be worked inward at the same time, using v-blocks of wood clamped onto the high spots(?).
In this case, I somewhat suspect that my own tight-seatpost remedy method may have been used while the bike was in the stand.
My method for fixing a tight-fitting seatpost where the ears may have been over-tightened inward is to put the seatpost into the frame about 3/4" in and then lean rearward on the post/lever to move the ears back out. This might produce dents in the seat tube with the rear dents being further up on the tube than the front dents.
For the record, I don't do any kind of forceful work on a bike mounted on a stand, ever.
Scarlson's idea of using a sized wooden dowel is how I would deal with this, followed by a more precisely-sized metal tube such as a seatpost remnant attached solidly to an extension. This would be equivalent to "rolling out the dents" from the inside, but less trauma on the paint and the metal. Perhaps also the dents could be worked inward at the same time, using v-blocks of wood clamped onto the high spots(?).