Help to identify vintage road bicycle!!!
06-01-20, 11:08 AM
#26
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Thread Starter
Unfortunately I striped the paint but found nothing.Can I somehow determine the decade the bike made to narrow the search ? Maybe from the lugs or something else .Is there any special reason that there is no brake wire drivers ? Please can someone explain how you realised that the fork is not original ? Thank you again !!
06-01-20, 12:00 PM
#27
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-----
dating -
do not know a launch year for the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug pattern
the earliest frames/bicycles have seen exhibiting it appear to date from the late 1950's
the frame's seat stay treatment is one not much seen on Italian frames prior to the mid-1970's
my guess, and it is only a wild guess, is that the frame dates from the 1974-75 time
---
serial -
the possibility remains that if/when you remove all of the paint you will find a serial which was put in by a machine.
sometimes when a person gets hold of a frame or bicycle they know or suspect to be stolen they will attempt to file/grind away the serial. when it wishes to law enforcement can usually bring these up to visibility with the aid of an etching solution. a common practice on items suspected to be stolen which display no serial where they should.
when you get things down to bare metal you can examine spots such as dropout faces and the underside of the bottom bracket shell for any signs of post-manufacture filing or grinding.
---
absence of brake guides -
this means nothing one way or the other. because frame has had more than one respray they may have been present at one time and removed by a previous owner. these things have gone in an out of fashion through the years. in the early 1970's when a young enthusiast got hold of an older frame with braze-ons they would often remove them so they could use clips and make the bike look more current. frame may have been made without them because of the fashion at the time of its production.
---
fork -
we assume it to be a replacement because it appears to be in original finish. its crown may be a model not released until after the frame's manufacture. since the frame's dropouts are Agrati we would expect the ends of the original fork to be Agrati was well, item nr. 000.8010.
---
one simple check you can make when you disassemble the headset is to examine the interior of the head tube to see if there is any evidence of fastener holes for a head emblem being filled in.
-----
dating -
do not know a launch year for the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug pattern
the earliest frames/bicycles have seen exhibiting it appear to date from the late 1950's
the frame's seat stay treatment is one not much seen on Italian frames prior to the mid-1970's
my guess, and it is only a wild guess, is that the frame dates from the 1974-75 time
---
serial -
the possibility remains that if/when you remove all of the paint you will find a serial which was put in by a machine.
sometimes when a person gets hold of a frame or bicycle they know or suspect to be stolen they will attempt to file/grind away the serial. when it wishes to law enforcement can usually bring these up to visibility with the aid of an etching solution. a common practice on items suspected to be stolen which display no serial where they should.
when you get things down to bare metal you can examine spots such as dropout faces and the underside of the bottom bracket shell for any signs of post-manufacture filing or grinding.
---
absence of brake guides -
this means nothing one way or the other. because frame has had more than one respray they may have been present at one time and removed by a previous owner. these things have gone in an out of fashion through the years. in the early 1970's when a young enthusiast got hold of an older frame with braze-ons they would often remove them so they could use clips and make the bike look more current. frame may have been made without them because of the fashion at the time of its production.
---
fork -
we assume it to be a replacement because it appears to be in original finish. its crown may be a model not released until after the frame's manufacture. since the frame's dropouts are Agrati we would expect the ends of the original fork to be Agrati was well, item nr. 000.8010.
---
one simple check you can make when you disassemble the headset is to examine the interior of the head tube to see if there is any evidence of fastener holes for a head emblem being filled in.
-----
Last edited by juvela; 06-01-20 at 12:07 PM. Reason: punctuation
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06-01-20, 01:27 PM
#28
Member
Thread Starter
-----
dating -
do not know a launch year for the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug pattern
the earliest frames/bicycles have seen exhibiting it appear to date from the late 1950's
the frame's seat stay treatment is one not much seen on Italian frames prior to the mid-1970's
my guess, and it is only a wild guess, is that the frame dates from the 1974-75 time
---
serial -
the possibility remains that if/when you remove all of the paint you will find a serial which was put in by a machine.
sometimes when a person gets hold of a frame or bicycle they know or suspect to be stolen they will attempt to file/grind away the serial. when it wishes to law enforcement can usually bring these up to visibility with the aid of an etching solution. a common practice on items suspected to be stolen which display no serial where they should.
when you get things down to bare metal you can examine spots such as dropout faces and the underside of the bottom bracket shell for any signs of post-manufacture filing or grinding.
---
absence of brake guides -
this means nothing one way or the other. because frame has had more than one respray they may have been present at one time and removed by a previous owner. these things have gone in an out of fashion through the years. in the early 1970's when a young enthusiast got hold of an older frame with braze-ons they would often remove them so they could use clips and make the bike look more current. frame may have been made without them because of the fashion at the time of its production.
---
fork -
we assume it to be a replacement because it appears to be in original finish. its crown may be a model not released until after the frame's manufacture. since the frame's dropouts are Agrati we would expect the ends of the original fork to be Agrati was well, item nr. 000.8010.
---
one simple check you can make when you disassemble the headset is to examine the interior of the head tube to see if there is any evidence of fastener holes for a head emblem being filled in.
-----
dating -
do not know a launch year for the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug pattern
the earliest frames/bicycles have seen exhibiting it appear to date from the late 1950's
the frame's seat stay treatment is one not much seen on Italian frames prior to the mid-1970's
my guess, and it is only a wild guess, is that the frame dates from the 1974-75 time
---
serial -
the possibility remains that if/when you remove all of the paint you will find a serial which was put in by a machine.
sometimes when a person gets hold of a frame or bicycle they know or suspect to be stolen they will attempt to file/grind away the serial. when it wishes to law enforcement can usually bring these up to visibility with the aid of an etching solution. a common practice on items suspected to be stolen which display no serial where they should.
when you get things down to bare metal you can examine spots such as dropout faces and the underside of the bottom bracket shell for any signs of post-manufacture filing or grinding.
---
absence of brake guides -
this means nothing one way or the other. because frame has had more than one respray they may have been present at one time and removed by a previous owner. these things have gone in an out of fashion through the years. in the early 1970's when a young enthusiast got hold of an older frame with braze-ons they would often remove them so they could use clips and make the bike look more current. frame may have been made without them because of the fashion at the time of its production.
---
fork -
we assume it to be a replacement because it appears to be in original finish. its crown may be a model not released until after the frame's manufacture. since the frame's dropouts are Agrati we would expect the ends of the original fork to be Agrati was well, item nr. 000.8010.
---
one simple check you can make when you disassemble the headset is to examine the interior of the head tube to see if there is any evidence of fastener holes for a head emblem being filled in.
-----
06-01-20, 01:43 PM
#29
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-----
one possiblility which glided in after posting is that it may be a Rizzato contract built bicycle which did not receive his usual serial placement & format.
in addition to owning marques such as Atala, Lygie, Atlantica, Maino, Dei, Rizzato and a list of several others, Cesare Rizzato did a good deal of contract work. possible that some of the contracted cycles did not get his serial.
do not wish to assert that this is the case. mention it only as a possibility...
it is unfortunate that the bottom bracket spindle on your bicycle has been replaced. about this time he had OMG make cottered bottom bracket fittings where the center section of the spindle was marked "ATALA." it would not matter how the cycle was actually badged. if it had a cottered chainset the spindle would have this marking.
---
it sounds like you are removing the paint gradually by hand. this may be a good thing. there is the chance that one or more transfers, or parts thereof, may remian beneath the paint. often times when bicycle owners do these spray can repaints they do not do very much preparation...
-----
one possiblility which glided in after posting is that it may be a Rizzato contract built bicycle which did not receive his usual serial placement & format.
in addition to owning marques such as Atala, Lygie, Atlantica, Maino, Dei, Rizzato and a list of several others, Cesare Rizzato did a good deal of contract work. possible that some of the contracted cycles did not get his serial.
do not wish to assert that this is the case. mention it only as a possibility...
it is unfortunate that the bottom bracket spindle on your bicycle has been replaced. about this time he had OMG make cottered bottom bracket fittings where the center section of the spindle was marked "ATALA." it would not matter how the cycle was actually badged. if it had a cottered chainset the spindle would have this marking.
---
it sounds like you are removing the paint gradually by hand. this may be a good thing. there is the chance that one or more transfers, or parts thereof, may remian beneath the paint. often times when bicycle owners do these spray can repaints they do not do very much preparation...
-----
Last edited by juvela; 06-01-20 at 02:02 PM. Reason: addition
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06-01-20, 01:59 PM
#30
Member
Thread Starter
-----
one possiblility which glided in after posting is that it may be a Rizzato contract built bicycle which did not receive his usual serial placement & format.
in addition to owning marques such as Atala, Lygie, Atlantica, Maino, Dei, Rizzato and a list of several others, Cesare Rizzato did a good deal of contract work. possible that some of the contracted cycles did not get his serial.
do not wish to assert that this is the case. mention it only as a possibility...
it is unfortunate that the bottom bracket spindle on your bicycle has been replaced. about this time he had OMG make cottered bottom bracket fittings where the center section of the spindle was marked "ATALA." it would not matter how the cycle was actually badged. if it had a cottered chainset the spindle would have this marking.
-----
one possiblility which glided in after posting is that it may be a Rizzato contract built bicycle which did not receive his usual serial placement & format.
in addition to owning marques such as Atala, Lygie, Atlantica, Maino, Dei, Rizzato and a list of several others, Cesare Rizzato did a good deal of contract work. possible that some of the contracted cycles did not get his serial.
do not wish to assert that this is the case. mention it only as a possibility...
it is unfortunate that the bottom bracket spindle on your bicycle has been replaced. about this time he had OMG make cottered bottom bracket fittings where the center section of the spindle was marked "ATALA." it would not matter how the cycle was actually badged. if it had a cottered chainset the spindle would have this marking.
-----
06-02-20, 03:15 PM
#32
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-----
thank you for the update and new images
good to see you are moving forward with things
regarding the deformation of the seat stay -
the bicycle trade has tools for dealing with damage of this type such as this Park #SS-1:
one can usually create a satisfactory approximation using blocks of wood and a bench vise
the damage on your frame is unusual in that it appears to have been an impact from the inside pushing outward
you want to get the deformation straightened for reasons beyond appearance. it has the effect of shortening the seat stay which affects the frame's alignment
---
when you disassembled the headset did you find any markings on the steerer. if present they might be a helpful clue
---
revisited the photos and can see that fork may be original, now leaning that way
one thing you could do if convenient is to make a picture of one of the fork ends
this would allow me to determine if they are Agrati which would be cofirmatory of the fork being original
---
in case you may be searching online for all of the Rizzato produced bicycles one feature to keep an eye out for is the seat stay treatment
have never seen this treatment on a Rizzato product. a fact which of course means nothing. they may have made many thousands of bicycles which show it
if you were to locate even one it would help to keep open the possiblility of a Rizzato origin for your bicycle
-----
thank you for the update and new images
good to see you are moving forward with things
regarding the deformation of the seat stay -
the bicycle trade has tools for dealing with damage of this type such as this Park #SS-1:
one can usually create a satisfactory approximation using blocks of wood and a bench vise
the damage on your frame is unusual in that it appears to have been an impact from the inside pushing outward
you want to get the deformation straightened for reasons beyond appearance. it has the effect of shortening the seat stay which affects the frame's alignment
---
when you disassembled the headset did you find any markings on the steerer. if present they might be a helpful clue
---
revisited the photos and can see that fork may be original, now leaning that way
one thing you could do if convenient is to make a picture of one of the fork ends
this would allow me to determine if they are Agrati which would be cofirmatory of the fork being original
---
in case you may be searching online for all of the Rizzato produced bicycles one feature to keep an eye out for is the seat stay treatment
have never seen this treatment on a Rizzato product. a fact which of course means nothing. they may have made many thousands of bicycles which show it
if you were to locate even one it would help to keep open the possiblility of a Rizzato origin for your bicycle
-----
Likes For juvela:
06-03-20, 05:21 AM
#33
Member
Thread Starter
-----
thank you for the update and new images
good to see you are moving forward with things
regarding the deformation of the seat stay -
the bicycle trade has tools for dealing with damage of this type such as this Park #SS-1:
one can usually create a satisfactory approximation using blocks of wood and a bench vise
the damage on your frame is unusual in that it appears to have been an impact from the inside pushing outward
you want to get the deformation straightened for reasons beyond appearance. it has the effect of shortening the seat stay which affects the frame's alignment
---
when you disassembled the headset did you find any markings on the steerer. if present they might be a helpful clue
---
revisited the photos and can see that fork may be original, now leaning that way
one thing you could do if convenient is to make a picture of one of the fork ends
this would allow me to determine if they are Agrati which would be cofirmatory of the fork being original
---
in case you may be searching online for all of the Rizzato produced bicycles one feature to keep an eye out for is the seat stay treatment
have never seen this treatment on a Rizzato product. a fact which of course means nothing. they may have made many thousands of bicycles which show it
if you were to locate even one it would help to keep open the possiblility of a Rizzato origin for your bicycle
-----
thank you for the update and new images
good to see you are moving forward with things
regarding the deformation of the seat stay -
the bicycle trade has tools for dealing with damage of this type such as this Park #SS-1:
one can usually create a satisfactory approximation using blocks of wood and a bench vise
the damage on your frame is unusual in that it appears to have been an impact from the inside pushing outward
you want to get the deformation straightened for reasons beyond appearance. it has the effect of shortening the seat stay which affects the frame's alignment
---
when you disassembled the headset did you find any markings on the steerer. if present they might be a helpful clue
---
revisited the photos and can see that fork may be original, now leaning that way
one thing you could do if convenient is to make a picture of one of the fork ends
this would allow me to determine if they are Agrati which would be cofirmatory of the fork being original
---
in case you may be searching online for all of the Rizzato produced bicycles one feature to keep an eye out for is the seat stay treatment
have never seen this treatment on a Rizzato product. a fact which of course means nothing. they may have made many thousands of bicycles which show it
if you were to locate even one it would help to keep open the possiblility of a Rizzato origin for your bicycle
-----
06-03-20, 08:36 AM
#34
Member
Thread Starter
The seat lug stays are looking like some used on Masi and Atala but I think it’s not the same exactly and fitted on different height on the lug.
Atala
Masi
Atala
Masi
06-05-20, 02:24 PM
#35
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-----
thanks very much for the new pictures of the frame; good job with them
the damage to the seat stay appears to be right at a vent hole, is that correct?
now that you have the frame bare this would be a good time to make an alignment check
it is possible to do this at home without recourse to any special tools
all that is needed is a length of string, a ruler and a straightedge
there is a good explanation with illustration here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
would expect the frame to have been constructed with 100mm spacing in the front and 120mm in the rear
---
the fork end appears to be the Agrati nr. 000.8010 which is the correct companion to the Agrati dropout nr. 000.8002 we have already established. information supports the idea of fork being original to the bicycle.
---
the front brake hanger which came with the bicycle may be a clue as to what the original brake set was. it looks like it is either Balilla brand or MAFAC brand. for an Italian bicycle the Balilla would be the more likely.
Balilla -
MAFAC -
---
in case you are curious here is what the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug set looks like as loose pieces:
---
as you collect the parts to build the bicycle back up into a complete machine see if you can find a correct size seat post to use. this way you will be able to discard the shim which is in there at present.
---
appears you are nearly ready for painting. have you selected a colour scheme for the frame?
-----
thanks very much for the new pictures of the frame; good job with them
the damage to the seat stay appears to be right at a vent hole, is that correct?
now that you have the frame bare this would be a good time to make an alignment check
it is possible to do this at home without recourse to any special tools
all that is needed is a length of string, a ruler and a straightedge
there is a good explanation with illustration here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
would expect the frame to have been constructed with 100mm spacing in the front and 120mm in the rear
---
the fork end appears to be the Agrati nr. 000.8010 which is the correct companion to the Agrati dropout nr. 000.8002 we have already established. information supports the idea of fork being original to the bicycle.
---
the front brake hanger which came with the bicycle may be a clue as to what the original brake set was. it looks like it is either Balilla brand or MAFAC brand. for an Italian bicycle the Balilla would be the more likely.
Balilla -
MAFAC -
---
in case you are curious here is what the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug set looks like as loose pieces:
---
as you collect the parts to build the bicycle back up into a complete machine see if you can find a correct size seat post to use. this way you will be able to discard the shim which is in there at present.
---
appears you are nearly ready for painting. have you selected a colour scheme for the frame?
-----
Last edited by juvela; 06-05-20 at 02:27 PM.
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06-07-20, 10:32 AM
#36
Member
Thread Starter
-----
thanks very much for the new pictures of the frame; good job with them
the damage to the seat stay appears to be right at a vent hole, is that correct?
now that you have the frame bare this would be a good time to make an alignment check
it is possible to do this at home without recourse to any special tools
all that is needed is a length of string, a ruler and a straightedge
there is a good explanation with illustration here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
would expect the frame to have been constructed with 100mm spacing in the front and 120mm in the rear
---
the fork end appears to be the Agrati nr. 000.8010 which is the correct companion to the Agrati dropout nr. 000.8002 we have already established. information supports the idea of fork being original to the bicycle.
---
the front brake hanger which came with the bicycle may be a clue as to what the original brake set was. it looks like it is either Balilla brand or MAFAC brand. for an Italian bicycle the Balilla would be the more likely.
Balilla -
MAFAC -
---
in case you are curious here is what the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug set looks like as loose pieces:
---
as you collect the parts to build the bicycle back up into a complete machine see if you can find a correct size seat post to use. this way you will be able to discard the shim which is in there at present.
---
appears you are nearly ready for painting. have you selected a colour scheme for the frame?
-----
thanks very much for the new pictures of the frame; good job with them
the damage to the seat stay appears to be right at a vent hole, is that correct?
now that you have the frame bare this would be a good time to make an alignment check
it is possible to do this at home without recourse to any special tools
all that is needed is a length of string, a ruler and a straightedge
there is a good explanation with illustration here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
would expect the frame to have been constructed with 100mm spacing in the front and 120mm in the rear
---
the fork end appears to be the Agrati nr. 000.8010 which is the correct companion to the Agrati dropout nr. 000.8002 we have already established. information supports the idea of fork being original to the bicycle.
---
the front brake hanger which came with the bicycle may be a clue as to what the original brake set was. it looks like it is either Balilla brand or MAFAC brand. for an Italian bicycle the Balilla would be the more likely.
Balilla -
MAFAC -
---
in case you are curious here is what the frame's Prugnat 62/d lug set looks like as loose pieces:
---
as you collect the parts to build the bicycle back up into a complete machine see if you can find a correct size seat post to use. this way you will be able to discard the shim which is in there at present.
---
appears you are nearly ready for painting. have you selected a colour scheme for the frame?
-----
So the front fork is original it is half chromed i don’t know if it’s clear from the photos .
I found this mafac part looks a lot like the one on my bike .
I managed to remove the seat post already but thanks for the tip!!
I will start with cold zinc galvanising but I am a bit confused about the colour . Firstly I were thinking the classic Bianchi colour but now I’m more for a dark red with some small white parts. I cleaned the crankset but it has many scratches and leaning towards painting it black .
Also I’m thinking changing the handlebar to a straight one !!!
06-07-20, 10:56 AM
#37
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-----
fine job on getting that dent out!
what to do with chrome plated parts which are scratched and/or tarnished is a challenge when you will be repainting.
in cases where the original paint is still passable the contrast with the frame finish is not so striking. but when you repaint the tarnished/scratched parts look more out of place.
have you found the wheels you would like to use for the bicycle?
-----
fine job on getting that dent out!
what to do with chrome plated parts which are scratched and/or tarnished is a challenge when you will be repainting.
in cases where the original paint is still passable the contrast with the frame finish is not so striking. but when you repaint the tarnished/scratched parts look more out of place.
have you found the wheels you would like to use for the bicycle?
-----
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06-08-20, 12:36 AM
#38
Member
Thread Starter
-----
fine job on getting that dent out!
what to do with chrome plated parts which are scratched and/or tarnished is a challenge when you will be repainting.
in cases where the original paint is still passable the contrast with the frame finish is not so striking. but when you repaint the tarnished/scratched parts look more out of place.
have you found the wheels you would like to use for the bicycle?
-----
fine job on getting that dent out!
what to do with chrome plated parts which are scratched and/or tarnished is a challenge when you will be repainting.
in cases where the original paint is still passable the contrast with the frame finish is not so striking. but when you repaint the tarnished/scratched parts look more out of place.
have you found the wheels you would like to use for the bicycle?
-----
the old wheels were 28 inches and tyres 700x28c so I’m thinking to buy the same.Alloy wheels but not something expensive !!
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06-08-20, 09:17 AM
#40
Member
Thread Starter
I applied the cold zinc and now the bike is ready for the paint !!! I like a lot the Colnago red with some white parts. I’m searching for the Colnago red if I can find a code or something close to this.
06-27-20, 07:13 PM
#43
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-----
thanks for sharing this update.
very nice job!
looks sharp.
will look forward to following along with the assembly.
tip - some paint manufacturers (and painters) recommend givng the finished job time to "cure" before starting assembly.
-----
thanks for sharing this update.
very nice job!
looks sharp.
will look forward to following along with the assembly.
tip - some paint manufacturers (and painters) recommend givng the finished job time to "cure" before starting assembly.
-----
Last edited by juvela; 06-27-20 at 07:14 PM. Reason: punctuation
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06-27-20, 07:42 PM
#44
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Where are you located? i have a Suntour BL GT that might be of interest to you.
Cheers
Cheers
06-28-20, 10:42 AM
#45
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06-28-20, 04:19 PM
#48
Junior Member
Help to identify vintage road bicycle!!!
New member here. To me this kind of thread is one of the reasons this forum is a good place to visit and hang out. Someone can post photos of what to many is just a ratty piece of garbage and the resident wizards of the obscure leap into action with the facts and opinion. In the same vein, I'm on a drum forum where someone can look at the logo stamp on an old Zildjian cymbal and will know where it was made in 1957, maybe the month and even the individual maker. MSD
12-28-20, 04:20 AM
#49
Member
Thread Starter
Unfortunately couldn’t find anything about the bike manufacturer yet but finally got it in drivable condition. Need a few more parts to be finished. This is how it looks now!!!
12-28-20, 05:08 AM
#50
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Looks nice, black and silver work suprisingly well together with red.
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