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Melted ENVY Rims

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Melted ENVY Rims

Old 07-21-19, 01:58 PM
  #26  
DubT
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I have these hydraulic rim brakes on our Calfee that we added a motor on. Magura RT8TT RT8 Hydraulic Rim Brake RT Converter Set Front Rear 2700149. The use conventional levers that connect to the converter box. We now have excellent rim brakes. These brakes are no longer produced but there may be some out there someplace. We use HED 3 wheels with aluminum braking surfaces and have not had any braking issues in nearly 50,000 miles.
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Old 07-23-19, 07:00 AM
  #27  
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Carbon fiber composite is essentially an insulator. Aluminum is a very good conductor. If the CF rims get hot in one spot, the heat won't readily flow to the cooler areas. I wonder if the concentrated heat build-up in small areas is what contributed to the failure. Also, might repeated thermal cycling of the rims degrade the material and lead to the failure you saw?

This is just one data point but an interesting one. Also interesting that the front rim failed but the rear showed the same early signs of problems.
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Old 07-27-19, 03:33 PM
  #28  
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Thanks for sharing

Great post. Thanks for sharing. There are lots of tandem teams with less time on the bike that can benefit from your post.
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Old 07-29-19, 08:01 AM
  #29  
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I agree with this assessment. The fact that carbon is more of an insulator means that when you brake hard, quickly dumping a tremendous amount of thermal energy into the rims, the heat dissipation through the rim material can't keep up, and you probably get very high temperatures on the braking surface. Others have mentioned a metal braking surface on carbon rims, but that doesn't really help the problem. The metal surface may be more abrasion resistant, but the core material is still carbon, and still isn't good for dissipating heat.

Based on this experience, I think the only reasonable approach to using carbon rims on a tandem is to use disc brakes. Rim brakes will probably be fine for 99% of your riding. But you'd want to avoid long steep descents at all costs. And, on any moderate descents, you'd be wondering how close to the "cliff" you are. Not worth it!

Thanks for sharing the details of this experience. It may eventually help others.
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Old 07-29-19, 09:58 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by quemazon View Post
I agree with this assessment. The fact that carbon is more of an insulator means that when you brake hard, quickly dumping a tremendous amount of thermal energy into the rims, the heat dissipation through the rim material can't keep up, and you probably get very high temperatures on the braking surface. Others have mentioned a metal braking surface on carbon rims, but that doesn't really help the problem. The metal surface may be more abrasion resistant, but the core material is still carbon, and still isn't good for dissipating heat.

Based on this experience, I think the only reasonable approach to using carbon rims on a tandem is to use disc brakes. Rim brakes will probably be fine for 99% of your riding. But you'd want to avoid long steep descents at all costs. And, on any moderate descents, you'd be wondering how close to the "cliff" you are. Not worth it!

Thanks for sharing the details of this experience. It may eventually help others.
Raw carbon fiber can take very high temperatures. Hot enough to melt your spokes and nipples.

The problem is the resin.

Over the last 5 to 10 years manufactures have become more aware of the heat issues and are using higher temperature resins.

Thus ZIPP denied having the problem with their latest generation wheels (not necessarily older wheels).

Nonetheless on particularly grueling descents, one can also feel the rims for heat. Stopping?

Hot rims may also put the tires at risk.

It seems to me to be too much of a bother to swap brakes back and forth to save a couple of ounces, except perhaps for specific very flat races.
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Old 07-29-19, 02:10 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Raw carbon fiber can take very high temperatures. Hot enough to melt your spokes and nipples.

The problem is the resin.
I agree, and with higher temperature resistance, perhaps the rim would have stayed together, unlike what happened in this case. But, a large part of the problem is heat dissipation. On long descents, the rims (or disc) acts as a heat sink to transfer thermal energy from the brake pads to the surrounding air. Metal, especially aluminum, is great for this, since it conducts heat so well.

While a thermally stable resin may prevent a destroyed rim, it won't prevent heat build-up and exceptionally high temperatures...which could melt brake pads, tires, and tubes.
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Old 07-29-19, 02:22 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by quemazon View Post
I agree, and with higher temperature resistance, perhaps the rim would have stayed together, unlike what happened in this case. But, a large part of the problem is heat dissipation. On long descents, the rims (or disc) acts as a heat sink to transfer thermal energy from the brake pads to the surrounding air. Metal, especially aluminum, is great for this, since it conducts heat so well.

While a thermally stable resin may prevent a destroyed rim, it won't prevent heat build-up and exceptionally high temperatures...which could melt brake pads, tires, and tubes.
Woud a layer of aluminum foil be enough? With galvanic isolation, of course. I suppose it would be tricky to make it thin, close to surface for heat dissipation, and to prevent tearing and oxidation.
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Old 07-29-19, 08:05 PM
  #33  
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Yes, the problem is getting the heat into the atmosphere since the heat capacity of any reasonable rim will be limited. That requires a heat-conductive rim like aluminum. We blew tires of alu box rims. I figured that out pretty quickly and switched to deep rims. Not so much for the increased mass, but for the increased surface area. No more blown tires. The deeper the better. I've been using 26mm-30mm depth rims, which works for our purposes. Still, touring in unknown terrain or descending long over 8% grades, I put the wheel with the drum on.
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Old 07-30-19, 03:34 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by bwebel View Post
I'm not sure an 808 with an aluminum braking surface is going to be a lot better, as opposed to just opening up a slightly different failure mode. You are still going to be dumping an enormous amount of heat into an aluminum/carbon fiber bonded interface with no particular place for it to go. I guess you won't have the extra force of the tire pressure on the carbon hook bead hold the rim on, which is good, but you are more likely to blow the tire off the rim as the tire/rim interface heats up more because the aluminum transmit the heat better than the pure carbon clincher. And I would think the carbon section of an 808 is going to insulate the aluminum a fair amount compared to a pure aluminum rim that is exposed to the air for cooling. I think I'd be using the rear brake a lot. Or would pay a couple hundred gram weight penalty for a deeper aluminum rim that will shed the heat better.
Yes, years ago we blew a tube due to the heating of Zipp 404s with an aluminum rim. Rim heats up, expands from the carbon just enough to create a gap at the rim joint for the tube to expand, penetrate and blow. We now use Zipp Firecrest rims with a TRP disk in back.
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Old 07-31-19, 05:38 PM
  #35  
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Glad you lived to tell the tale!

Knowing what I know about carbon rims, I would NEVER use them on a tandem with rim brakes. My neighbor who races experienced a rim blowout similar to your experience on his carbon SINGLE road bike. He's pretty light too. And I think a teammate of his had a similar experience. I think they were no-name carbon rims, which raised suspicions, but still. The material simply is not made to withstand high friction and head loads. Aluminum and other high heat conductive metals are a much better choice. So, knowing this, I cannot imagine why ANYONE would trust basically a plastic rim to withstand high and prolonged braking heat loads on a tandem. It simply does not make sense. Sure, "raw carbon" can take high temps, but no one uses ONLY carbon!

I'd say that good advice to any tandem riders would be to only use carbon rims with disk brakes.

Thanks for sharing and as I said, it's REALLY good you survived this failure with nary a scratch!
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Old 08-02-19, 06:18 PM
  #36  
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Just saw this thread. Yikes, close call. So glad you didn't bite it.

Disc brakes were a primary necessity when I decided to build up a set of carbon wheels for our tandem. IMO, rim brakes should never be used with carbon wheels unless for a specialty bike meant for flatter races, TT, etc. Just one of those failures waiting to happen. Before we got our full disc tandem, Will Von Kaenel kind of melted his front ENVE rim, so that was a clear sign not to go there.

FWIW, we are now using the Ultegra hydro Di2 levers with the older XT level rs785 2 piston calipers and metallic pads (pulls more heat out of the rotors than resin pads). I replaced the BH59 hose with BH90 and now happy with the firmer brake feel and plenty of lever pressure... enough to lock up the rear if I really crank down on it. Modulation is good. It isn't required to use the Shimano disc rotors, but we do... 180mm front/rear is enough for most riding. Last week I really laid into the brakes a few times coming down a long, very steep and winding road with sketchy surface and blind corners.... just slighty toasted the rotors enough to warp a little (fixed afterward) and needed a slight deburring on the edges. On our mtn tandem, we are running Hope rotors.

Anyway, hoping you get this sorted and figure out a safer means of travel.

Cheers.
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Old 08-03-19, 04:28 PM
  #37  
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So, I've got the TRP Hybird rear disc brake adjusted and bedded in.

It's way more powerful than the Bengal cable actuated brake. I can easily lock the rear wheel with the rear brake alone, and more importantly modulate short of that.

With the Bengal, the brake lever bottomed out well before locking the rear wheel.

I think had we had the TRP (and time to dial it in) we wouldn' t have melted the front rim.

Thus going forward, I think we'll be good with the rear disc, and the aluminum tracked Zipp on the front, particularly since we tend to descend fast without riding brakes.

as an abundance of caution, I'm thinking of going with a deep sectioned aluminum rimmed wheel ( DT Swiss) in place of of the Zipp front for mountainous rides.
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Old 08-04-19, 07:33 PM
  #38  
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I'd second the motion for an all-aluminum front rim for the mountains.

But there's something else: I went back and re-read your careful description of your Walnut Gap wheel failure. I wonder if your rim just plain broke, unrelated to heat. (You said you felt the front brake pulsing when you started to brake into a corner at speed. It wouldn't have been hot, yet, and wouldn't ever have been hot, given very little braking on earlier descents.) Then, when you decided (wisely of course) to stop and check, you had to bring your speed rapidly down to zero on a steep grade, getting only to 10 mph when the wheel went ka-blooie. This is much more aggressive braking than you would have planned to do before the decision to stop and would have put much more heat power into the rim, a rim that seems already to have been damaged and compromised. While this heat clearly finished off the rim, I find myself doubting that it was heat that started the trouble.

A light (and very strong) tandem couple we toured with a few years ago broke a (rear) low-spoke-count carbon rim "just riding along" on the level on pavement. Maybe they hit a bump badly, -- I don't know, they were always out of sight, far ahead of us! -- but for sure there was no braking heat involved in their mishap. They didn't crash -- the wheel held together but there was a large crack with an angulated step deformity in the rim right through the brake track and bead into the V-shape deep to it, looked superficially in my memory like yours.

Just wondered what you thought of this hypothesis. You were there, I wasn't. If correct, it would tell me that the wheel (because it broke when still cool) failed structurally under your weight and road impact even before you heat-stressed it. If I'm incorrect, it would be consistent with the supposition that the rim was fine for purposes and all we need to do is make sure that we don't over-heat them.

Whatever, we're sticking with our 36- and 40- spoke Velocity Deep V's.
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Old 08-06-19, 05:12 AM
  #39  
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^ Pretty sure for a number of reasons that it essentially melted. One, the rims were extremely hot to the touch. Two, the brake track was pretty much destroyed in multiple spots around the rim. The damage to the brake track was greater than the pictures really show, and interestingly, was much more apparent immediately after the incident than the next day. As the rim cooled carbon fibers that were raised up in a disarray settled back down into the rim as it cooled.

Third, we were about 2 miles down the descent and had braked hard several times before the failure., Four, we didn’t hit anything that would have stressed the rims, and they’ve always been rock solid. Finally, the way the inner tube is damaged is a classic presentation of a blow out from excessive heat.

With the benefit of being there and observing the rim immediately after the failure, I’m pretty convinced it was heat related.
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Old 08-06-19, 09:56 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
^ Pretty sure for a number of reasons that it essentially melted. ...

Third, we were about 2 miles down the descent and had braked hard several times before the failure., Four, we didn’t hit anything that would have stressed the rims, and they’ve always been rock solid. ....
OK, that's the clincher. Sorry if I missed that. Thanks.
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Old 08-07-19, 07:55 AM
  #41  
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Thanks for this post and I'm so glad you escaped with your skin intact! 25 years ago we came close to disaster on a fully loaded tandem with cantilever brakes and aluminum rims. Did a big descent in the pouring rain and figured the rain would keep the rims cool. Looking at the bike in the sunshine the next morning we realized that the tire sidewalls were melted and frayed and we couldn't believe they had held together.

Tandems by nature are putting twice as much heat into the braking system than your typical user so we'll always be an edge case for the designers.

Be careful everyone.
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Old 08-12-19, 01:47 PM
  #42  
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I had several such issues when I used clinchers. Mainly alloy rims with the brake trace blowing out. I've had no such issues in 70Kish tubular miles (with good glue).
I use disk rear (now) and rim front. We are 360# tandem, but was riding 500# (most massive highest torque stoker I begged not to break cranks) with the same no problem on tubulars.
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Old 08-12-19, 01:57 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
...

Unfortunately, ENVE no longer makes any deep sectioned road rims with more than 24 holes, pretty much putting them out of the tandem market for all but the smallest teams
...
We are 360# 24 rear/20 front.
Rear are Sapim strong straight pull (13g, to 14g), front are Sapim cx race (14g-blade 15g-14g).
If you stand a lot, then I'd go bigger on front. So far used ~3K miles.
I intensely dislike their serrated rim brake surfaces, so I mainly use the rear disc for 90% of braking, but the front rim brake is fine for any quick stop needed.
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Old 08-12-19, 02:31 PM
  #44  
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FWIW WoundUp makes a disc tandem fork thats 650 grams & supports a 203mm rotor. Surely the "extra" weight of a disk will be mitigated by the lighter fork that is probably (may be?) lighter than the one you have now.

I dunno man...even a 3.5 pound Arai drum brake would amount to 1% of your total weight. What would 6 or 8 additional ounces of a front disc be? I'll bet you lost more time not finishing the ride than the 6 or 8 ounces a front rim brake saved ever saved you.

I'm sincerly not trying to be snarky. I love my carbon rims. But I can't wrap my engineering brain around pouring a few thousand watts into the brake track for minutes on end going any other way. At least in aluminum rims the heat energy gets conducted away for some time before capacity is reached.

I'm glad you are ok & cognizant of the situation enough to mitigate the slow-motion doom as it happened. Imagine all the times you got lucky. That's something to be thankful for, indeed!

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Old 09-08-19, 02:10 PM
  #45  
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As an update, ENVY has accepted our warranty claim. We haven't ironed out yet what replacement rims they're going to give us.
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Old 09-10-19, 02:07 PM
  #46  
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Thanks for that update. I'm very impressed with ENVE's response.
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Old 09-10-19, 03:44 PM
  #47  
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Had the Classics for 4 plus years never a problem, a nice wheel set, moved on, put a set of Enve SES 5.6 DISC brakes on our Filament tandem going on 3 years, what a difference, handled better, stable at all speeds, Sram etap DISC breaks mega stopping power, plus don’t get moved around in high wind descends. Had Enve built a custom set using DT Aero Comp for extra strength, Enve agreed with me that on a tandem usage this was the best way to go, normally they use lighter spokes, Enve SES Non Disc might work for you with spoke modification, choose wisely, and good luck
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