Changing gears
10-17-18, 05:52 AM
#76
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If you can turn 53x13 at all at 105rpm you are one strong rider. Don't expect to maintain that for any amount of time unless tailwind assisted or downhill.
Giving up 3 teeth on the big chainring only means you will need to spin slightly quicker. This is vintage here. In past racers turned much higher rpm than do current racers. Either way will get you the speed. If you are thinking of endurance you want to do it in lower gears. My paraphrase/translation of Velocio: The longer the ride, the longer the season, the older you become, the greater the tendency to adopt higher gears. Don't do it.
Big gears give some temporary satisfaction. They cause injuries. They will end your ride quick.
Giving up 3 teeth on the big chainring only means you will need to spin slightly quicker. This is vintage here. In past racers turned much higher rpm than do current racers. Either way will get you the speed. If you are thinking of endurance you want to do it in lower gears. My paraphrase/translation of Velocio: The longer the ride, the longer the season, the older you become, the greater the tendency to adopt higher gears. Don't do it.
Big gears give some temporary satisfaction. They cause injuries. They will end your ride quick.
10-17-18, 06:30 AM
#77
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In this thread, the purpose is that a fixie will help you to develop your pedalling technique, as the pedals keep turning when descending. Also on the flat, as the only way to go faster is to pedal faster.
10-17-18, 01:34 PM
#78
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If you can turn 53x13 at all at 105rpm you are one strong rider. Don't expect to maintain that for any amount of time unless tailwind assisted or downhill.
Giving up 3 teeth on the big chainring only means you will need to spin slightly quicker. This is vintage here. In past racers turned much higher rpm than do current racers. Either way will get you the speed. If you are thinking of endurance you want to do it in lower gears. My paraphrase/translation of Velocio: The longer the ride, the longer the season, the older you become, the greater the tendency to adopt higher gears. Don't do it.
Big gears give some temporary satisfaction. They cause injuries. They will end your ride quick.
Giving up 3 teeth on the big chainring only means you will need to spin slightly quicker. This is vintage here. In past racers turned much higher rpm than do current racers. Either way will get you the speed. If you are thinking of endurance you want to do it in lower gears. My paraphrase/translation of Velocio: The longer the ride, the longer the season, the older you become, the greater the tendency to adopt higher gears. Don't do it.
Big gears give some temporary satisfaction. They cause injuries. They will end your ride quick.
My mistake, it wasn’t 105. I over estimated. It was at around 102, according to the gear calculator app that I am using. Anyway, that’s my point. I CAN pedal at that cadence, but only for about 1/4 mile & then I’m exhausted & my overall time will suffer. So in no way do I expect to maintain that for any longer.
When i compare the gear calculator for a 53/13 I see that I have to spin at 102 to reach 32.7. If I use a 50/11 I’ll only need to spin at 92 to reach 32.9. This is what I was wondering about when I rode with a group & they were at the same cadence, in the same gear & were less tired than I was. So, for me, big gear, small gear, I don’t know. What I do know is that for me to be able to ride at the cadence I want, in the gear that I want, to hit the speeds that I want, I’m going with a different setup. My knees & quads will thank me.
And now that I have made this decision, I’m hoping that all I need to know is that I need the sprocket I choose to have a 130BCD. If that is correct, I’m hoping that someone can tell me if I also need any other measurements like thickness of that sprocket? I have no idea, obviously, so I just need the information so I can do my thing, my way.
10-17-18, 02:37 PM
#79
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Gives you some respect for pro riders, huh? Those who can average mid-20 mph on 100+ mile stage, or break away and hammer a big gear for hours, or time trial around 30 mph. Something to aim for.
10-17-18, 03:18 PM
#80
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I wouldn't worry about trying to maintain a 90 rpm or faster cadence, especially on an older steel road bike. There's a reason why earlier generations of cyclists rode the way they did -- often mashing up hills at around 40-60 rpm, and usually around 70-80 rpm everywhere else. The high, limited gearing, somewhat heavier bikes and wheels, etc., combined to dictate the most efficient approach.
Cyclists from Lance Armstrong's generation onward didn't suddenly decide "Hey... spinning faster!" and just did it without regard to equipment and their bodies. Updated equipment facilitated a faster cadence. They couldn't simply spin at 90 rpm without regard to equipment and weight. Their bikes were lighter. The cyclists themselves were often lighter than their predecessors (taking body type into consideration). They're not just magically making more power by spinning at a faster cadence with the same old bikes and gear.
At that level of competition, cycling becomes a game of grams, to borrow from the description about baseball being a game of inches. Lance Armstrong talked about weighing everything he ate, counting every calorie, an approach comparable to refueling for automobile racing. In contrast, earlier European cycling champion Jacques Anquetil was known to eat fairly heavy, luxurious meals with champagne during the wee hours before a race; and Eddy Merckx often preferred to eat at home or like he did at home, hearty meals with lots of meat and carbs. Not much consideration toward counting calories or weighing grams of food.
Watch Phil Gaimon's videos about tackling KOMs. He's constantly talking about saving a gram here and there, from chopping off the drops on his handlebar to deciding whether to omit an entire rear brake for a particular segment.
Also, a faster cadence has its own demands. Mashing and grinding at a slower cadence puts more demand on the legs and core. Spinning demands more aerobic capacity -- a lot of effort goes into simply reloading the legs for the next downward stroke. The faster spinning cadence favored since the 1990s was pretty obviously enhanced by EPO, blood doping and testosterone, and more recently by the switch to salbutamol, clenbuterol and other bronchodilators that are also believed to enhance lean muscle mass in elite athletes. It's unlikely we ordinary cyclists will be able to mimic their cadence without their performance enhancing substances.
Even if we try to use the legs more efficiently by pulling up on the pedals, most of that effort goes into simply lifting the weight of the leg, clothing, shoes and pedals. Unless we're wearing the lightest shoes and have installed the lightest pedals and cranks, we're facing diminishing returns. With my '89 Centurion Ironman -- mostly stock, with pedals comparable to those of that era -- when I spin above 90 rpm a lot of energy is wasted just lifting heavy crank arms and pedals. And while my shoes aren't particularly heavy, they wouldn't suit gram-conscious riders.
I *can* spin at 120-130 rpm, on the trainer, flats and downhill, but only for short bursts of 15-60 seconds. I'd probably do better with higher gearing for those downhills where I'm occasionally close to spinning out with the 52/13 combo and have peaked at 40 mph, well short of the KOMs and top tens of 45 mph (we're all wind assisted, another factor).
A slower cadence, using the legs more efficiently with a natural downward pressure, may suit your body and conditioning better.
Cyclists from Lance Armstrong's generation onward didn't suddenly decide "Hey... spinning faster!" and just did it without regard to equipment and their bodies. Updated equipment facilitated a faster cadence. They couldn't simply spin at 90 rpm without regard to equipment and weight. Their bikes were lighter. The cyclists themselves were often lighter than their predecessors (taking body type into consideration). They're not just magically making more power by spinning at a faster cadence with the same old bikes and gear.
At that level of competition, cycling becomes a game of grams, to borrow from the description about baseball being a game of inches. Lance Armstrong talked about weighing everything he ate, counting every calorie, an approach comparable to refueling for automobile racing. In contrast, earlier European cycling champion Jacques Anquetil was known to eat fairly heavy, luxurious meals with champagne during the wee hours before a race; and Eddy Merckx often preferred to eat at home or like he did at home, hearty meals with lots of meat and carbs. Not much consideration toward counting calories or weighing grams of food.
Watch Phil Gaimon's videos about tackling KOMs. He's constantly talking about saving a gram here and there, from chopping off the drops on his handlebar to deciding whether to omit an entire rear brake for a particular segment.
Also, a faster cadence has its own demands. Mashing and grinding at a slower cadence puts more demand on the legs and core. Spinning demands more aerobic capacity -- a lot of effort goes into simply reloading the legs for the next downward stroke. The faster spinning cadence favored since the 1990s was pretty obviously enhanced by EPO, blood doping and testosterone, and more recently by the switch to salbutamol, clenbuterol and other bronchodilators that are also believed to enhance lean muscle mass in elite athletes. It's unlikely we ordinary cyclists will be able to mimic their cadence without their performance enhancing substances.
Even if we try to use the legs more efficiently by pulling up on the pedals, most of that effort goes into simply lifting the weight of the leg, clothing, shoes and pedals. Unless we're wearing the lightest shoes and have installed the lightest pedals and cranks, we're facing diminishing returns. With my '89 Centurion Ironman -- mostly stock, with pedals comparable to those of that era -- when I spin above 90 rpm a lot of energy is wasted just lifting heavy crank arms and pedals. And while my shoes aren't particularly heavy, they wouldn't suit gram-conscious riders.
I *can* spin at 120-130 rpm, on the trainer, flats and downhill, but only for short bursts of 15-60 seconds. I'd probably do better with higher gearing for those downhills where I'm occasionally close to spinning out with the 52/13 combo and have peaked at 40 mph, well short of the KOMs and top tens of 45 mph (we're all wind assisted, another factor).
A slower cadence, using the legs more efficiently with a natural downward pressure, may suit your body and conditioning better.
Last edited by canklecat; 10-17-18 at 03:22 PM.
10-17-18, 03:47 PM
#81
Senior Member
There's a reason why earlier generations of cyclists rode the way they did -- often mashing up hills at around 40-60 rpm, and usually around 70-80 rpm everywhere else. The high, limited gearing, somewhat heavier bikes and wheels, etc., combined to dictate the most efficient approach.
Updated equipment facilitated a faster cadence.
10-17-18, 04:58 PM
#82
Senior Member
At 32.7 or 32.9 in a pack of riders I'd be on 52x15. Although realistically we are now talking about 20 years ago. When wearing seven league boots and mashing down on the pedal, the gear ratio is what is steering the bike. Light touch on the pedal and you have much better fine control. Of course if you gear sensibly you will be out of step with all your peers on 50x11.
I've done maybe a thousand A group rides where speeds you are talking about were completely normal. We used to do that and there would be maybe one significant injury in the group in a year. Or even less than that as the injury most likely occurred at some race or event one of the guys in the group did elsewhere. It was really unlikely any injury at all would occur in a year of club rides. Now there is a weekly injury report. An awful lot of that is due to high gears.
50x14 would have been a normal high gear for pros at the end of Coppi's career, not in his heyday. In a fast race like Paris-Tours back in the 30s you'd see average speeds of 45kph with top gear of 47x15. When I started in this game in mid 60s there were still guys racing Cat 1 (called A back then) with 50x14 or even less. Lots of older guys had a 15 small cog. Pack speeds of 32 and 33 certainly were normal on those gears.
I've done maybe a thousand A group rides where speeds you are talking about were completely normal. We used to do that and there would be maybe one significant injury in the group in a year. Or even less than that as the injury most likely occurred at some race or event one of the guys in the group did elsewhere. It was really unlikely any injury at all would occur in a year of club rides. Now there is a weekly injury report. An awful lot of that is due to high gears.
50x14 would have been a normal high gear for pros at the end of Coppi's career, not in his heyday. In a fast race like Paris-Tours back in the 30s you'd see average speeds of 45kph with top gear of 47x15. When I started in this game in mid 60s there were still guys racing Cat 1 (called A back then) with 50x14 or even less. Lots of older guys had a 15 small cog. Pack speeds of 32 and 33 certainly were normal on those gears.
10-18-18, 09:16 AM
#83
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Yeah! Respect & awe! Like I’ve been saying, I’m not trying to be a pro, & it’s a good thing that I’m not haha, but thinking about how a pro rides really does put things into perspective!
10-18-18, 10:23 AM
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What numbers go you get for 53:12?
53:11 would get you even faster at a sub-100 cadence - if you manage to turn it.
Its the switching to smaller at both ends that has me wondering. For go-fast, the smaller front is fighting the result of the smaller rear.
If you want to pin the blame on something else than athletic ability, look at air drag from clothing and position, and possibly the various forms of mechanical drag your bike might generate.
10-18-18, 10:44 AM
#85
Senior Member
Again, if you are doing these speeds at all your fitness is darn good. And will likely improve all on its own if you simply continue to ride. Time to look at technique.
One of the common bits of vocabulary cyclists used to have was 'snap'. Haven't heard that much since the 80s. Was in use at least as far back as the 20s. It meant the ability to change speed right now. Figure kilo riders accelerate from 0 to 35 in about 3 seconds. Three point five seconds and you might make it up later in the ride. Four seconds and you ain't racing. So if 0-35 is three seconds, accelerating 32 to 34 should take about as long as thinking about it. When you want to accelerate right now in an automobile you shift down a gear. Same for motorcycles. Same for bicycles. Trundling along in a gear of 50x11 you can't much accelerate, all you can do is maintain. For that matter 53x13 is not much good for changing speed, mostly you will work to maintain.
Next time you are up to speed and want a little more don't imagine being on the monstergears your friends have. Put your gear back to 53x15 and see how fast you can gap them.
One of the common bits of vocabulary cyclists used to have was 'snap'. Haven't heard that much since the 80s. Was in use at least as far back as the 20s. It meant the ability to change speed right now. Figure kilo riders accelerate from 0 to 35 in about 3 seconds. Three point five seconds and you might make it up later in the ride. Four seconds and you ain't racing. So if 0-35 is three seconds, accelerating 32 to 34 should take about as long as thinking about it. When you want to accelerate right now in an automobile you shift down a gear. Same for motorcycles. Same for bicycles. Trundling along in a gear of 50x11 you can't much accelerate, all you can do is maintain. For that matter 53x13 is not much good for changing speed, mostly you will work to maintain.
Next time you are up to speed and want a little more don't imagine being on the monstergears your friends have. Put your gear back to 53x15 and see how fast you can gap them.
10-18-18, 11:54 AM
#86
Senior Member
When you want to accelerate right now in an automobile you shift down a gear. Same for motorcycles. Same for bicycles. Trundling along in a gear of 50x11 you can't much accelerate, all you can do is maintain. For that matter 53x13 is not much good for changing speed, mostly you will work to maintain.
If the OP wants to ride at speeds approaching what pros do, it can be achieved by training. This requires a commitment of time and suffering, and likely some coaching from people that know how to train. Changing gears won't do anything.
10-18-18, 01:40 PM
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Okay everyone, I am thinking that I am not articulating my thoughts clearly. So, for clarity, I want to restate a few points.
I ride a particular 20 mile route on a great, paved route nearby, & I ride it about 3-5 days each week. I like to keep a good pace throughout the rides at a speed of around 16-20. I do not try to sprint for the entire 20 miles. In the segments of these rides where I do sprint, depending on the grade, I may be in my 17 or 15 before I shift to my 14 & then 13 as I increase my cadence as I build up speed. When I get to that 13t, I like to see how fast I can go in that segment. The straightaway where I can go the fastest, only for a quarter of a mile or so before my quads catch on fire is seven miles into those rides. There are a couple of straightaways before & after this one where I also sprint before returning to my pace of 16-20. The one straightaway where I am hitting the speeds with the cadences that the gear calculator I have used is where I am taking about experiencing the most fatigue. After I hit my top speed for that stretch, I go back to my normal cadence of around 16-20 & back into either my 17 or 15, depending on the trail. The next time I come to an area where I want to push my speed again, I follow the same method. That’s it. In no way have I ever thought I could manage how I sprint for the entire 20 miles.
In talking with some guys I’ve ridden with, they have acknowledged that while they don’t push themselves to hit the speeds that I do (not that they are far behind), they can ride at that same 16-20 pace while applying less force & spending less energy than I do while at that pace. When they do hit an area (not an entire 20 mile ride) where they want to sprint, they shift from lower to higher gears as appropriate for them & for the nature of the road they are riding on, just like I do. The differences they point out are; they don’t have to spin as fast as I do in order to hit whatever they target as their top speed, that they recover from whatever their top speed is quicker than I do, which, they also point out, makes it easier for them to ride longer distances at that pace of 16-20 again before the next straightaway & sprint. Having pedaled alongside these guys, I get what they are saying & I see that it seems to be true.
In in light of all of this, I had been considering, & have now finally decided, that I want to change my gearing to be similar. What I was originally asking for was advice on how to do this from a mechanical point of view, not on how much anyone can or cannot see my point or it they disagree, or even if they had some useful advice (which I have taken seriously & have stated that I am grateful to have read) which could point me in a different direction, & not if they think my level of fitness is up to par for my goals. So thanks everyone, I’ve got it from here.
Also, I will acknowledge that while Im not the most fit person on the planet, I will say, respectfully of the group that I’ve ridden with, one of those guys is about as fit as I am. So yeah, that’s not it.
I ride a particular 20 mile route on a great, paved route nearby, & I ride it about 3-5 days each week. I like to keep a good pace throughout the rides at a speed of around 16-20. I do not try to sprint for the entire 20 miles. In the segments of these rides where I do sprint, depending on the grade, I may be in my 17 or 15 before I shift to my 14 & then 13 as I increase my cadence as I build up speed. When I get to that 13t, I like to see how fast I can go in that segment. The straightaway where I can go the fastest, only for a quarter of a mile or so before my quads catch on fire is seven miles into those rides. There are a couple of straightaways before & after this one where I also sprint before returning to my pace of 16-20. The one straightaway where I am hitting the speeds with the cadences that the gear calculator I have used is where I am taking about experiencing the most fatigue. After I hit my top speed for that stretch, I go back to my normal cadence of around 16-20 & back into either my 17 or 15, depending on the trail. The next time I come to an area where I want to push my speed again, I follow the same method. That’s it. In no way have I ever thought I could manage how I sprint for the entire 20 miles.
In talking with some guys I’ve ridden with, they have acknowledged that while they don’t push themselves to hit the speeds that I do (not that they are far behind), they can ride at that same 16-20 pace while applying less force & spending less energy than I do while at that pace. When they do hit an area (not an entire 20 mile ride) where they want to sprint, they shift from lower to higher gears as appropriate for them & for the nature of the road they are riding on, just like I do. The differences they point out are; they don’t have to spin as fast as I do in order to hit whatever they target as their top speed, that they recover from whatever their top speed is quicker than I do, which, they also point out, makes it easier for them to ride longer distances at that pace of 16-20 again before the next straightaway & sprint. Having pedaled alongside these guys, I get what they are saying & I see that it seems to be true.
In in light of all of this, I had been considering, & have now finally decided, that I want to change my gearing to be similar. What I was originally asking for was advice on how to do this from a mechanical point of view, not on how much anyone can or cannot see my point or it they disagree, or even if they had some useful advice (which I have taken seriously & have stated that I am grateful to have read) which could point me in a different direction, & not if they think my level of fitness is up to par for my goals. So thanks everyone, I’ve got it from here.
Also, I will acknowledge that while Im not the most fit person on the planet, I will say, respectfully of the group that I’ve ridden with, one of those guys is about as fit as I am. So yeah, that’s not it.
10-18-18, 04:29 PM
#88
Senior Member
Moving up through the gears as you describe is about the most difficult method possible for hitting a target speed.
You keep calling it a sprint. I never did learn to sprint. Did get fast along the way and did get some sprint coaching. This is what Jimmy Walthour told me. Since you don't know who that is let me tell you. Winner of 14 six day races, back when the only money sports were six day and boxing. In boxing only heavyweight paid much. And then you got to meet Joe Louis. Jimmy said "You don't learn to sprint attempting to sprint gears you can't even push. You learn to sprint by sprinting on gears you can sprint." And he had me sprinting on 42x16 to start. I could get to 30 mph pretty quick on 42x16. And 35mph quick on 52x18. Never was able to make a bigger gear move aside quick and didn't have the killer instinct anyway.
You keep calling it a sprint. I never did learn to sprint. Did get fast along the way and did get some sprint coaching. This is what Jimmy Walthour told me. Since you don't know who that is let me tell you. Winner of 14 six day races, back when the only money sports were six day and boxing. In boxing only heavyweight paid much. And then you got to meet Joe Louis. Jimmy said "You don't learn to sprint attempting to sprint gears you can't even push. You learn to sprint by sprinting on gears you can sprint." And he had me sprinting on 42x16 to start. I could get to 30 mph pretty quick on 42x16. And 35mph quick on 52x18. Never was able to make a bigger gear move aside quick and didn't have the killer instinct anyway.
10-18-18, 05:16 PM
#89
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Moving up through the gears as you describe is about the most difficult method possible for hitting a target speed.
You keep calling it a sprint. I never did learn to sprint. Did get fast along the way and did get some sprint coaching. This is what Jimmy Walthour told me. Since you don't know who that is let me tell you. Winner of 14 six day races, back when the only money sports were six day and boxing. In boxing only heavyweight paid much. And then you got to meet Joe Louis. Jimmy said "You don't learn to sprint attempting to sprint gears you can't even push. You learn to sprint by sprinting on gears you can sprint." And he had me sprinting on 42x16 to start. I could get to 30 mph pretty quick on 42x16. And 35mph quick on 52x18. Never was able to make a bigger gear move aside quick and didn't have the killer instinct anyway.
You keep calling it a sprint. I never did learn to sprint. Did get fast along the way and did get some sprint coaching. This is what Jimmy Walthour told me. Since you don't know who that is let me tell you. Winner of 14 six day races, back when the only money sports were six day and boxing. In boxing only heavyweight paid much. And then you got to meet Joe Louis. Jimmy said "You don't learn to sprint attempting to sprint gears you can't even push. You learn to sprint by sprinting on gears you can sprint." And he had me sprinting on 42x16 to start. I could get to 30 mph pretty quick on 42x16. And 35mph quick on 52x18. Never was able to make a bigger gear move aside quick and didn't have the killer instinct anyway.
Yeah, I don’t know a lot about shifting other than I do it when my pace is too fast for that gear. Then I shift to the next higher gear until I’m able to hit the next one, until I’m out of gas. I try like hell to keep my feet moving as fast as I can (when I am doing what I relate to as sprinting while running) Then I push it harder until I’m spent. And once I’ve done this & feel good about giving more than I will accept as my best, i coast, I downshift, I return to my 16-20 until I have enough enemy to hit the next straightaway.
Last edited by DonRocinante; 10-19-18 at 04:36 AM.
10-19-18, 09:39 AM
#90
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Reply to both edited and unedited version of last post.
Most riders pedal like cavemen. Fortunately caveman biking is fun.
Most who wish to go a little faster and try hard end up averaging about 16-20 when riding solo. Most all who average better than that are doing it on group rides.
The bike industry wants to sell you stuff. They want you to think stuff is what makes you go fast. Classic and vintage says if you are averaging 16-20 any better quality bike made the past 80 years will do the trick. A bike in good operating condition is a plus. Good tires are a plus.
Big gears are the same as visiting the weight room. In moderation if at all. Pounding big gears will develop big legs. Then you have to carry those big legs around. Bike racers are skinny little whippets.
If you have a half good position on the bike and do not suffer congenital diseases or deformity your max rpm is higher than you think. This winter give a try to fixed gear and/or roller riding. On rollers most have no trouble hitting 200 rpm. On a fixed wheel downhill or downwind it takes little practice to make 150 rpm. On road bikes there is seldom purpose to hitting 150 rpm but you can. Having 120 and 130 on tap is very useful.
So you are doing normal try-hard speed and have the wit and drive to mix it up with some speed work. This is all good. Maybe warm up more than 7 miles before attempting the max speed run. Try easy rushes to 25 and 28mph in lower gears than you think possible. Try to hit speed briefly without any forcing or strain. And don't coast. Just stop coasting. Before long you'll figure out it is easier to pedal constantly and it will become second nature.
If 20 mile rides is what you do that's fine. Aim for some longer distance rides when possible. If once a week isn't in the schedule, once a month would be helpful. Twice a season? A 50 or 100 mile ride will make a difference right away.
Most riders pedal like cavemen. Fortunately caveman biking is fun.
Most who wish to go a little faster and try hard end up averaging about 16-20 when riding solo. Most all who average better than that are doing it on group rides.
The bike industry wants to sell you stuff. They want you to think stuff is what makes you go fast. Classic and vintage says if you are averaging 16-20 any better quality bike made the past 80 years will do the trick. A bike in good operating condition is a plus. Good tires are a plus.
Big gears are the same as visiting the weight room. In moderation if at all. Pounding big gears will develop big legs. Then you have to carry those big legs around. Bike racers are skinny little whippets.
If you have a half good position on the bike and do not suffer congenital diseases or deformity your max rpm is higher than you think. This winter give a try to fixed gear and/or roller riding. On rollers most have no trouble hitting 200 rpm. On a fixed wheel downhill or downwind it takes little practice to make 150 rpm. On road bikes there is seldom purpose to hitting 150 rpm but you can. Having 120 and 130 on tap is very useful.
So you are doing normal try-hard speed and have the wit and drive to mix it up with some speed work. This is all good. Maybe warm up more than 7 miles before attempting the max speed run. Try easy rushes to 25 and 28mph in lower gears than you think possible. Try to hit speed briefly without any forcing or strain. And don't coast. Just stop coasting. Before long you'll figure out it is easier to pedal constantly and it will become second nature.
If 20 mile rides is what you do that's fine. Aim for some longer distance rides when possible. If once a week isn't in the schedule, once a month would be helpful. Twice a season? A 50 or 100 mile ride will make a difference right away.
10-19-18, 01:54 PM
#91
Senior Member
Reply to both edited and unedited version of last post.
Most riders pedal like cavemen. Fortunately caveman biking is fun.
Most who wish to go a little faster and try hard end up averaging about 16-20 when riding solo. Most all who average better than that are doing it on group rides.
The bike industry wants to sell you stuff. They want you to think stuff is what makes you go fast. Classic and vintage says if you are averaging 16-20 any better quality bike made the past 80 years will do the trick. A bike in good operating condition is a plus. Good tires are a plus.
Big gears are the same as visiting the weight room. In moderation if at all. Pounding big gears will develop big legs. Then you have to carry those big legs around. Bike racers are skinny little whippets.
If you have a half good position on the bike and do not suffer congenital diseases or deformity your max rpm is higher than you think. This winter give a try to fixed gear and/or roller riding. On rollers most have no trouble hitting 200 rpm. On a fixed wheel downhill or downwind it takes little practice to make 150 rpm. On road bikes there is seldom purpose to hitting 150 rpm but you can. Having 120 and 130 on tap is very useful.
So you are doing normal try-hard speed and have the wit and drive to mix it up with some speed work. This is all good. Maybe warm up more than 7 miles before attempting the max speed run. Try easy rushes to 25 and 28mph in lower gears than you think possible. Try to hit speed briefly without any forcing or strain. And don't coast. Just stop coasting. Before long you'll figure out it is easier to pedal constantly and it will become second nature.
If 20 mile rides is what you do that's fine. Aim for some longer distance rides when possible. If once a week isn't in the schedule, once a month would be helpful. Twice a season? A 50 or 100 mile ride will make a difference right away.
Most riders pedal like cavemen. Fortunately caveman biking is fun.
Most who wish to go a little faster and try hard end up averaging about 16-20 when riding solo. Most all who average better than that are doing it on group rides.
The bike industry wants to sell you stuff. They want you to think stuff is what makes you go fast. Classic and vintage says if you are averaging 16-20 any better quality bike made the past 80 years will do the trick. A bike in good operating condition is a plus. Good tires are a plus.
Big gears are the same as visiting the weight room. In moderation if at all. Pounding big gears will develop big legs. Then you have to carry those big legs around. Bike racers are skinny little whippets.
If you have a half good position on the bike and do not suffer congenital diseases or deformity your max rpm is higher than you think. This winter give a try to fixed gear and/or roller riding. On rollers most have no trouble hitting 200 rpm. On a fixed wheel downhill or downwind it takes little practice to make 150 rpm. On road bikes there is seldom purpose to hitting 150 rpm but you can. Having 120 and 130 on tap is very useful.
So you are doing normal try-hard speed and have the wit and drive to mix it up with some speed work. This is all good. Maybe warm up more than 7 miles before attempting the max speed run. Try easy rushes to 25 and 28mph in lower gears than you think possible. Try to hit speed briefly without any forcing or strain. And don't coast. Just stop coasting. Before long you'll figure out it is easier to pedal constantly and it will become second nature.
If 20 mile rides is what you do that's fine. Aim for some longer distance rides when possible. If once a week isn't in the schedule, once a month would be helpful. Twice a season? A 50 or 100 mile ride will make a difference right away.
If you want to work on your top speed, that’s cool, but I would argue that increasing your average speed is much more meaningful in terms of your overall fitness and cycling skill.
10-21-18, 10:03 AM
#92
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63rickert & duo route
Well guys, I’m ready to listen & quit being so hard headed. On my usual ride yesterday, I finally beat my top speed of 32.9 by reaching 33.3. I would be proud of this, but my overall time absolutely sucked! So I went on a ride this morning. The temp was the coolest temperature this year. My legs were burning from the get go.
Every ride ode that I do & record on Strava ends with me earning 2-5 achievements. Well, not today. I earned ZERO achievements! It was a super hard ride & I was fighting to get my breathing under control the whole time. Yep. I hear the word “overtraining” loudly & clearly. Damn. That really sucked.
Okay. Enough whining, it’s time to move on & to ride smarter, not harder. I get it now. It’s taken some time to get what you guys have said to sink into my incredibly thick skull, but it finally has.
My quads are super tight although I’ve stretched a few times. I’m not going g to ride tomorrow so I can recover from all the stress I’ve subjected my body to. I’ll start after a day or two off with a new set of goals & a new perspective. I can’t get over how hard this ride was. I’ve never experienced this even with distance running.
Every ride ode that I do & record on Strava ends with me earning 2-5 achievements. Well, not today. I earned ZERO achievements! It was a super hard ride & I was fighting to get my breathing under control the whole time. Yep. I hear the word “overtraining” loudly & clearly. Damn. That really sucked.
Okay. Enough whining, it’s time to move on & to ride smarter, not harder. I get it now. It’s taken some time to get what you guys have said to sink into my incredibly thick skull, but it finally has.
My quads are super tight although I’ve stretched a few times. I’m not going g to ride tomorrow so I can recover from all the stress I’ve subjected my body to. I’ll start after a day or two off with a new set of goals & a new perspective. I can’t get over how hard this ride was. I’ve never experienced this even with distance running.
10-21-18, 10:14 AM
#93
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Thick head? You have competition on that account. I started to hear about lifting the pedals as well as pushing down on them more than 50 years ago. Only started to make sense to me perhaps ten years ago. And I've yet to explain it to anyone well enough that they received more than a glimmer. So I had the enormous privilege and opportunity to hear the same advice from Jimmy Walthour, Othon Ochsner Sr., Torchy Peden, Charlie Yaccino --- and did nothing with it. Us old guys have been around a long time and have picked up a few things. Absolutely does not make us smart.
33.3mph counts. You have to be doing many things right to get there.
33.3mph counts. You have to be doing many things right to get there.
10-22-18, 12:07 PM
#94
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Thick head? You have competition on that account. I started to hear about lifting the pedals as well as pushing down on them more than 50 years ago. Only started to make sense to me perhaps ten years ago. And I've yet to explain it to anyone well enough that they received more than a glimmer. So I had the enormous privilege and opportunity to hear the same advice from Jimmy Walthour, Othon Ochsner Sr., Torchy Peden, Charlie Yaccino --- and did nothing with it. Us old guys have been around a long time and have picked up a few things. Absolutely does not make us smart.
33.3mph counts. You have to be doing many things right to get there.
33.3mph counts. You have to be doing many things right to get there.
As as far as smarter goes, I must not have too much in that department as I have read from you “old guys” what seems to be a method of building & increasing overall speed while I have been targeting speed increases in specific areas which is making it harder for me to have the endurance to build the overall speed. My longest ride has been 27 miles & I want to extend that so I can enjoy some riding events. So back to my reason for starting this post. I had wonder if changing my gears would help me with this, but after my late observations of my riding I get that I need to ride with differently to be able to ride longer. If I were to enter an event or a race today, it would have to be a drag race for bikes. That’s all I’m good for at this point.
My my legs are feeling a lot better today. I pushed it super hard & I won’t do that again until I’ve gotten better all around.
10-25-18, 10:59 AM
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Body position
If folks are seemingly matching your speed with apparently less effort the first aspect I would consider is your bike setup.
Are you getting the correct extension of your leg drive. Is the frame the size that allows you minimize upper body and arm fatigue. Even something as innocuous as greater pressure on your wrists and palms can bring on fatigue.
A centimetre here or there can make a huge difference.
An acquaintance who regularly does 3, 4,5 hundred mile events refused to believe me when I told him
the 3 thousand dollar rosd bike he was riding had a seat post two inches too low. It was blindingly obvious.. He would pull up after a hundred mile training ride completely exhausted in his squatting on the toilet setup and I finally ended up screaming abuse at him.
He eventually raised it 2 inches (which is an incredible change) and was so invigorated he did the London Paris race,
Because of his previous struggles he had chosen a slower pelaton and thus arrived in Paris as fresh as a daisy and loving his new bike setup.
Are you getting the correct extension of your leg drive. Is the frame the size that allows you minimize upper body and arm fatigue. Even something as innocuous as greater pressure on your wrists and palms can bring on fatigue.
A centimetre here or there can make a huge difference.
An acquaintance who regularly does 3, 4,5 hundred mile events refused to believe me when I told him
the 3 thousand dollar rosd bike he was riding had a seat post two inches too low. It was blindingly obvious.. He would pull up after a hundred mile training ride completely exhausted in his squatting on the toilet setup and I finally ended up screaming abuse at him.
He eventually raised it 2 inches (which is an incredible change) and was so invigorated he did the London Paris race,
Because of his previous struggles he had chosen a slower pelaton and thus arrived in Paris as fresh as a daisy and loving his new bike setup.
Last edited by Johno59; 10-25-18 at 11:23 AM.
10-25-18, 12:00 PM
#96
Senior Member
Wait - you are doing all this, including getting up to 33 mph, with no form of foot retention? I am impressed. Others may differ, but imho that’s fine for riding around town, but for serious riding and particularly to develop a smooth and efficient pedaling technique, you really need your feet attached to the pedals.
I like the old Look and Look-licensed Shimano clipless pedals that take Delta cleats. They are dirt cheap on EBay, they generally have excellent build quality, and are close to maintenance-free.
Or go with spd’s If you want to use shoes that are better for walking around.
Or just put your toe clips back on and use them - they won’t scrape once your feet are in them.
I like the old Look and Look-licensed Shimano clipless pedals that take Delta cleats. They are dirt cheap on EBay, they generally have excellent build quality, and are close to maintenance-free.
Or go with spd’s If you want to use shoes that are better for walking around.
Or just put your toe clips back on and use them - they won’t scrape once your feet are in them.
10-25-18, 12:03 PM
#97
Senior Member
So you have done all this on flat pedals. Those 'cages' are called toeclips, the complete setup is called clips & straps. I'm a big fan of toeclips and use them myself. Unfortunately clips are getting arcane and difficult. You will be much better off getting basic SPD clipless. $40 retail pedals are fine, shoes are going to cost you.
You do or did some running. This is kinda like coach watches the team doing a warmup set of 440 intervals @ 60 seconds and sees that you are breezing through them. Then notices the Chuck Taylors on your feet. Or maybe its Crocs. Coach is going to get you into some spikes and you are going to learn how to use starting blocks. When you know how to use the blocks we find out if you are good for a 50 second 440 or if maybe it is better than that.
Bike shoes are used hard. They just cost more than spikes. When Nike started making bike shoes they blew up quickly for the first five generations and then they decided to market Italian until they figured it out. Shop for price but get Italian. There are some good fake Italian shoes out there, the good ones are not cheap, better to just get the real thing. They will last for years.
You do or did some running. This is kinda like coach watches the team doing a warmup set of 440 intervals @ 60 seconds and sees that you are breezing through them. Then notices the Chuck Taylors on your feet. Or maybe its Crocs. Coach is going to get you into some spikes and you are going to learn how to use starting blocks. When you know how to use the blocks we find out if you are good for a 50 second 440 or if maybe it is better than that.
Bike shoes are used hard. They just cost more than spikes. When Nike started making bike shoes they blew up quickly for the first five generations and then they decided to market Italian until they figured it out. Shop for price but get Italian. There are some good fake Italian shoes out there, the good ones are not cheap, better to just get the real thing. They will last for years.
10-25-18, 12:33 PM
#98
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My bike came with what I would guess are some kind of straps or cages (“clips?”) that I took off because one would always drag the ground when I would start off with the other foot already in. I haven’t tried the “clipless” pedals yet so I’m only pushing when I ride. Yeah, the concept of pushing with one foot & pulling or lifting with the other simultaneously seems odd to me, but I’ve heard that it increases speed.
Toe clips/straps or "clipless" pedals are primarily to keep your foot retained in a good location on the pedal. It's generally not necessary to cinch down the straps tightly. With a tiny bit of practice you should be able to smoothly insert your foot into the clip/strap within one pedal revolution of starting without any dragging.
10-25-18, 12:57 PM
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If folks are seemingly matching your speed with apparently less effort the first aspect I would consider is your bike setup.
Are you getting the correct extension of your leg drive. Is the frame the size that allows you minimize upper body and arm fatigue. Even something as innocuous as greater pressure on your wrists and palms can bring on fatigue.
A centimetre here or there can make a huge difference.
An acquaintance who regularly does 3, 4,5 hundred mile events refused to believe me when I told him
the 3 thousand dollar rosd bike he was riding had a seat post two inches too low. It was blindingly obvious.. He would pull up after a hundred mile training ride completely exhausted in his squatting on the toilet setup and I finally ended up screaming abuse at him.
He eventually raised it 2 inches (which is an incredible change) and was so invigorated he did the London Paris race,
Because of his previous struggles he had chosen a slower pelaton and thus arrived in Paris as fresh as a daisy and loving his new bike setup.
Are you getting the correct extension of your leg drive. Is the frame the size that allows you minimize upper body and arm fatigue. Even something as innocuous as greater pressure on your wrists and palms can bring on fatigue.
A centimetre here or there can make a huge difference.
An acquaintance who regularly does 3, 4,5 hundred mile events refused to believe me when I told him
the 3 thousand dollar rosd bike he was riding had a seat post two inches too low. It was blindingly obvious.. He would pull up after a hundred mile training ride completely exhausted in his squatting on the toilet setup and I finally ended up screaming abuse at him.
He eventually raised it 2 inches (which is an incredible change) and was so invigorated he did the London Paris race,
Because of his previous struggles he had chosen a slower pelaton and thus arrived in Paris as fresh as a daisy and loving his new bike setup.
Anyway, so when I started cycling I thought a little research would be a good idea & I still like this guy on YouTube named Si with GCN. I’ve learned a lot about form & position & I have followed his advice in most areas. In saying this however, I do “hear” what you are saying & appreciate the suggestions & will take another look at how I am positioned. Man I really like this forum & to be able to have conversations with experienced cyclists is even better than watching YouTube videos, although they are helpful.
Tha ks for the advice!
10-25-18, 01:16 PM
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Wait - you are doing all this, including getting up to 33 mph, with no form of foot retention? I am impressed. Others may differ, but imho that’s fine for riding around town, but for serious riding and particularly to develop a smooth and efficient pedaling technique, you really need your feet attached to the pedals.
I like the old Look and Look-licensed Shimano clipless pedals that take Delta cleats. They are dirt cheap on EBay, they generally have excellent build quality, and are close to maintenance-free.
Or go with spd’s If you want to use shoes that are better for walking around.
Or just put your toe clips back on and use them - they won’t scrape once your feet are in them.
I like the old Look and Look-licensed Shimano clipless pedals that take Delta cleats. They are dirt cheap on EBay, they generally have excellent build quality, and are close to maintenance-free.
Or go with spd’s If you want to use shoes that are better for walking around.
Or just put your toe clips back on and use them - they won’t scrape once your feet are in them.
By the way, don’t be too impressed. To restate the rest of my previous comments, it hurt like hell afterward! I read something that made me think that when I am going all out that it may not be referred to as “sprinting,” but how I do that (whatever it’s called) is getting as low as I can & shifting my feet onto the pedals in a position that feels like it gives me the most power while pushing downward & I hammer it out like I was running the 440. Each “stride” is harder & faster than the last. When I feel I’ve hit my limit I ignore it & push harder & faster. That’s how I did it when I competed in running. Yeah, I’m learning that it apparently is done differently on a bike. My legs have never hurt like that when running in that way at any point in my life & not now when I run or do a set of squats, lunges or clean & jerks. So, pedals help with speed & fatigue? Like I said, it’s time to do some shopping.