Originally Posted by deadzone

The bulky STI levers are also a bit of an eyesore in addition to being less comfortable for me.

Originally Posted by jefnvk

As one who has bikes with them, I don't. It is a significant time and/or cost to just try out something that mostly died off for a reason, a cost that most people would be better suited putting towards towards actually riding or purchasing useful accessories. If one was interested, certainly I would encourage them to give it a go, but there really is no practicable purpose for the population at large.

Originally Posted by deadzone

Wow that is a really closed minded perspective. Totally disagree on the significant amount of time and cost to try this. For high end stuff, you could get nice Aero brake lever and DT shifters for about $100 used if you wanted to convert existing bike (assuming it has bosses). Installation is trivial and doesn't require any additional cables. Or alternatively it easy to find high quality used bikes on craigs list for $200-300 range that already have DT setup. Considering most people on this forum routinely drop several grand on bikes this is a very small investment.

Originally Posted by v8powerage

So I think that downtube shifters should make a comeback, I'm talking about indexed (rear), because it seems most people associate them with friction ones that used to take some skill to use.
I've been only using downtube shifters in my life, I had rides on "brifters" but was not impressed (btw I'm not old at the time of writing, born 88 as to disperse notion that downtube shifters are only for old folks). I can only see upsides to them, can't possibly think of one thing that I don't like about them, they really make me want to ride my bike, if I had to ride sti I think I'd give it up long ago.

Here's what I think are the best things about them, there are probably more to be found:

• Can shift as many gears as you want, go from first to last in one throw (very useful when at top of the hill or merging from uphill road to the main road)
• Can shift front and rear with one hand
• Ability to indefinitely trim front, no problem if you trim too much, don't have to change gear and go back again, and with rear if you overshoot you just click back
• Can shift without holding handlebar, very useful when I hold water bottle (you can even shift with no hands holding handlebar at all too but ok that's showing off)
• Change of cable takes one minute
• Very simple mechanism and very cheap to fix or replace, don't have to tell how much sti cost to replace and they're almost impossible to fix. I fixed my front downtube shifter on the road once with help of a pebble because bit of it inside broke and wouldn't stay in position, now try that with sti.
• Very light, they weight next to nothing, it's negligible really and they used to even make carbon fibre ones (mavic)
• Gear changes are quicker than sti, they're instant because cable is shorter and there's no mechanism just your hand, they're almost like a bionic mechanism you're connected to the shifter no ratchets or computer between you and the derailleur
• You always know what gear You're at just by touching the shifter
• Very intuitive, your hand motion is direct cable action so no brainer which way is up and which is down
• Brake levers are for braking only so they don't have to be bulky and the lever only goes one way (particulary bad thing about shimano sti is that the lever goes to the side when you press it, also sometimes in a corner you might press on the lever from the side and with shimano you'd accidentally change gear, campagnolo don't have that but they have downshift button which can be pressed by accident, sram don't have either of these things but their brifters are bulky )

Now someone can say electronic, but they don't solve all the drawbacks of regular sti and don't give as much freedom as downtube shifter do, you can't shift as many gears as you want, you can only program it to shift certain amount every time and if you want to shift more you have to shift twice or more times, I won't mention maintenance because it's ridiculous to me, all the cables, connectors, charging and programming.

I totally don't get argument of holding handlebar at all times, because well how do you ever drink then, you still have to take your hand off and frankly you can take both hands off and if the bicycle is in good shape nothing will happen. it will go straight. Besides, I actually like to take hand off the handlebar once in a while because hands gets numb, often I shift both front and rear with my left hand so it gets workout too, now with sti you will only shift with right hand most of the time and right hand will go to sleep, very dangerous for me.

Some say that you can't shift while standing on the pedals, well I never found that to be problem, I always just throw couple gears up and then stand on the pedals to accelerate, it's better this way anyway because this way you don't put so much stress on the chain and cassette, shifting under load is not such a good idea even with hyperglyde, best thing is to ease out for a while, just like you do in the car with clutch.

Now argument that pros use them, well not really because fastest bikes actually have downtube type shifters but they're installed at the front (lemond handlebar).
I do 10.000km + a year and routinely overtake everybody on my bike, and not just bikes, so they're not slowing me down at all.

I really don't get it how they completely dissapeared from the market on new bikes, simplicity is always better and especially if it has so many advantages, but they say everything old is new again so maybe someone will think of them and they will start offering downtube shifters on new bikes again.

Originally Posted by Lazyass

You can't imagine it because you don't have the experience. When you do get the experience you can do it without even thinking, it's an instant reflex.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

- its dangerous to assume most people here spend thousands on bikes. Some?- yes. Many?- sure. Most?- eh...

all this for what...to try out a system that is antiquated?
.

Originally Posted by deadzone

One more piece of information I wanted to share related to this topic. Over the last 2-3 years or so, I have been shocked at how often I see young people (college age, male and female) riding around on old school 80s vintage road bikes (like Ironman, etc) for general commuting. This is a clear trend where I live in Southern California. but I can't say if this is a national trend or not. It is very interesting because I remember clearly that traditional road bikes, which we called 10 speeds in the day, went out of style by the mid-80s replaced by mountain bikes for general city riding/commuting. But it is also interesting because these young people were born many years after DT shifting became obsolete and yet they are riding these bikes for transportation and seem to have no issues with the DT shifters.

Originally Posted by deadzone

Wow that is a really closed minded perspective. Totally disagree on the significant amount of time and cost to try this. For high end stuff, you could get nice Aero brake lever and DT shifters for about $100 used if you wanted to convert existing bike (assuming it has bosses). Installation is trivial and doesn't require any additional cables. Or alternatively it easy to find high quality used bikes on craigs list for $200-300 range that already have DT setup. Considering most people on this forum routinely drop several grand on bikes this is a very small investment.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

- its dangerous to assume most people here spend thousands on bikes. Some?- yes. Many?- sure. Most?- eh...

I am someone that would do something like you suggest, and has done similar things many times. I also recognize that as a nerd who likes trying out stuff to compare and contrast for no other reason than I find it fun, I am very much in the minority.

Originally Posted by deadzone

Wow that is a really closed minded perspective. Totally disagree on the significant amount of time and cost to try this. For high end stuff, you could get nice Aero brake lever and DT shifters for about $100 used if you wanted to convert existing bike (assuming it has bosses). Installation is trivial and doesn't require any additional cables. Or alternatively it easy to find high quality used bikes on craigs list for $200-300 range that already have DT setup. Considering most people on this forum routinely drop several grand on bikes this is a very small investment.

Originally Posted by deadzone

One more piece of information I wanted to share related to this topic. Over the last 2-3 years or so, I have been shocked at how often I see young people (college age, male and female) riding around on old school 80s vintage road bikes (like Ironman, etc) for general commuting. This is a clear trend where I live in Southern California. but I can't say if this is a national trend or not. It is very interesting because I remember clearly that traditional road bikes, which we called 10 speeds in the day, went out of style by the mid-80s replaced by mountain bikes for general city riding/commuting. But it is also interesting because these young people were born many years after DT shifting became obsolete and yet they are riding these bikes for transportation and seem to have no issues with the DT shifters.

Originally Posted by Ironfish653

It's not because these are new bikes. These are old, cheap bikes. Most 80's ten-speeds are available nearly free in most places.
And it's 'Authentic' to ride an old ten-speed rather than a cheap hybrid from Target.
Also, you want your campus commuter to be as undesirable as possible to limit the appeal of stealing it.
They're riding these bikes because they're cheap and available, not because of some desire to ride a DT bike.
(finally, most of the 'boom bikes' were stem-shift)

Originally Posted by deadzone

First of all, you can't buy a nice quality new road bike for under $1000, even in 1990 a mid level Trek with Ultegra components would cost you $1000. You are delusional if you think forking out $200 today is significant in comparison for what serious cyclists pay for bikes and parts on a regular basis. But no I don't think DT shifters will become mainstream again. But for the kind of folks like on this forum, who by definition are bike nerds, I wouldn't be surprised if they become more trendy in a niche sort of way (like craft beer for instance). I was surprised how much I like them after having been exclusively on STi since the mid-90s. There are definitely many tangible advantages as have been described in this thread. In fact unless you are riding competitively I can't think of any real disadvantages. Comparing my bikes with DT vs STI, they are different experiences but I am no faster or slower on one vs. the other. The only real problem is practical in that they only really make sense on older bikes with shifter bosses.

Originally Posted by Bulette

I *have* spent thousands to get the equipment I have --- but I'd like to spend less as I continue to rack up miles, reducing my cycling cost per hour (another thread...). The bar-end shifters on my older Salsa Vaya were starting to get a bit raggedy (a few drops with a touring load was enough to bend the Cowbell Handlebars). Brifters were over $100 a set! So, a pair of friction down-tube shifters was only ~$20; the limitations of the DT's were acceptable for the long-ride/brevet/touring configuration I desired, and were the cheapest by a long shot.

I don't mind, and even have a bit of fun swinging the big levers around, and the 'system' is indestructible. I have brifters on the 'road bike' for club and fast rides, but the shifting isn't as crisp as when it was new, and I dread the day I shell out for new brifters. Maybe I will go the Retroshift/Gevenalle route with friction so I don't have to stress about properly pairing my derailleurs!

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

i was responding to the claim that most cyclists spend 'thousands' on their bike. To me, that general term means many thousands- so $3k or more. But even at $2k or more(so the smallest amount that's also the literal plural of thousand), I find it incorrect to claim thst most cyclist' s bikes cost more than that.
I currently own 8 bikes and have owned dozens- but only 2 has cost me over $1000 and all have been quality frames plus components. I build them though. Only 1 has cost over $2000.
from what I see, bikes over $2000(thousands) are anything but the majority, and I am in a pretty healthy cycling community.

my comment about $200 being a lot to pay is that i think its a lot to pay for a totally random and unnecessary experiment that would only interest the bike nerds among us.
I dont think $200 is a huge cost in general, but yes i think it is a lot for many to pay to just try something.

But for those who like to tinker and try old stuff- yup that small niche of a small group will keep downtube shifting alive.

Originally Posted by deadzone

For sure DT shifting will only be a niche going forward, unless the bike industry for some reason decides to push them on the masses again (highly doubtful). I'm just pointing out that I tend to agree with the Op there are many tangible advantages to them and certainly they are less expensive and easier to maintain than STI. So it wouldn't surprise me that this niche group grows in size in the future. And there is real evidence where I live that a lot of young people are riding old school bikes with DT shifters. This definitely wasn't happening 5-10 years ago so there is a trend in place for whatever reason and it is not just economics. These young people seem to like DT shifting because it would be far easier to find a used bike on CL without DT shifting for the same price.

Originally Posted by Ironfish653

They're not riding old, DT shift bikes because they have DT shift. They're riding them because old, drop-bar 'ten-speeds' are 'authentic' and thus, cool.
5-10 years ago, these bikes were all being stripped and converted to FG / SS, until they realized that bikes with gears and brakes are much easier to ride, so the oE drivetrain stays on.

'90s MTBs may be more 'ergometeric' but they don't have the appropriate vintage 'cred' among the young stylemakers.

Originally Posted by deadzone

Well anyway you slice it, DT shifters are apparently cool now among the younger set. And perhaps it is not strictly style, maybe folks are actually realizing that DT shifting is very functional and practical.

Originally Posted by Ironfish653

You missed. It's not because they're DT shift bikes. It's because they're OLD.
Boom era bikes were either DT or stem shift, since brifters didn't exist yet.
'Ten-speeds' are cool because today's college kids had MTB's growing up, and riding a vintage drop-bar makes you 'sophisticated' in the eyes of your peers.
They're not re-fitting these bikes with 6800 10-speed Ultegra and indexed DT's, they are leaving them they way they were originally built.

Converting an old Ten-speed bike to brifters doesn't make any sense financially, due to the need to replace so many components, even to do a 2x7 conversion.
DT's do have the advantage on a low/no-budget build since there's so few pieces involved, if you're piecing a bike together out of a couple of 'basket cases' and friction DT's will operate just about any combination of mechs you can get to fit on the frame

Originally Posted by deadzone

What did I miss? You basically just ran through several of the key advantages to DT shifters. Fact is they work great and young people are realizing they are more than adequate for their needs. The fact that young people think these bikes are cool is evidence to the original post that DT shifters may indeed make a comeback.

Originally Posted by Ironfish653

Still looking at this from the opposite side of this. They're riding old bikes in spite of the DT shifters, not because of them.

They want 'old bikes;' French Fit, slammed stems, like an extra from Breaking Away. These are commuters, at most café runners, so it's not about performance.
Old bikes have DTs. Since most of these bikes are being ridden in as-found condition, they're wearing their original equipment as a matter of convenience, not because of preference for one shifter setup or another.

I see a lot of turkey levers, too, should they be making a comeback?

Originally Posted by deadzone

Disagree with "in spite of the DT shifters". That is an illogical assumption on your part. The DT shifters are a fundamental aspect of these classic bikes that contribute to the cool factor. And for basic recreational riding and commuting, they are figuring out what many of us have always known, that the DT shifters provide more than adequate performance.

Originally Posted by Ironfish653

I don't see how that is illogical. My assumption is that vintage 'ten-speeds' are popular with 'college hipsters' because they are OLD. Bikes from the Ten-speed era (at least the better ones) have DT shifters.
Your assuption was that it must be the DT shifters that made these bikes popular, because they could get a much more practical and 'ergometric' bike in a used MTB.

Say you're a broke college kid / young adult who wants a bike to get around on. You only have $150-200 or less to spend. You could get some generic big-box 'MTB' like the one your parents gave you in middle school, or a slightly ratty Peugeot from the back of the co-op. The budget MTB is like driving your mom's hand-me-down minivan, the Ten-speed is like a Karmann-Ghia; It says that you value style and uniqueness over practicality.

For the record, when I restored my dad's '76 Bridgestone, I put DTs on to replace the rusty stem shifters. I was trying to retain as many of the original parts, so the DT's were the solution to run the combination of vintage Suntour and Sugino and modern Shimano components i used.
That bike is my townie / path bike, and it probably gets the most trips, of my bikes,but rarely more than 10 miles at a go. I find that the DTs, while fine for just riding around town, are a limitation in the cut-and-thrust of a time-sensitive commute, or the tight confines of a group ride, or the demands of a distance event in unfamiliar territory.