carpediemracing 

I had a good experience on how to come back after getting dropped, or, more accurately, how it's impossible to come back after getting dropped.

For the first 3.5 minutes of the race Sunday, I was mainly sitting on wheels. I was in a small cooperative group that gave tons of shelter to each other on the vicious crosswinds. No one gapped one another on purpose. The group consisted of the best riders in the field - two former pros, 3 more really good riders. Smart, savvy, and strong. I took only one or two relatively weak pulls. I was sitting on wheels otherwise. I averaged 280 watts, well above my threshold.

I blew up and came off a wheel.

To chase back on would have probably required a 400-500-600 watt effort. I didn't have that effort in me - I'd already blown up averaging 280 watts.

To put things in perspective, I typically average 180-200w for an hour long race, and my FTP is about 210w right now.

For the next 16 minutes, getting worked over in an uncooperative group, in the wind a lot, etc etc etc, I averaged 200w. I was comfortable at that high level of work and probably could have continued for the rest of the race, about 50 minutes. But after 16 minutes at that pace we got lapped.

Due to the lack of cooperation in that group I could only take 3? pulls in the 16 minutes. I couldn't recover because everyone was working against each other, even though we were the 4th group on the road.

aicabsolut

I can generally close a 10 sec. gap in ~1 lap of the average crit course. This is 100% effort. I agree with CDR that this is a gap size that can be closed solo most of the time.

I once got caught in a larger gap in no man's land between a break and the field. I was on the wrong wheel when the break went and couldn't get around in time to connect (they attacked up a hill into a headwind). It took me 3 laps on this particular course to catch on. I was crosseyed and drooling by the time I got up there, but had I not made it, I would have been completely cooked. The field was going to get lapped (I think maybe twice, the break went on lap 3), so dropping back on purpose was not an option to me. The break could have attacked the second I caught on, but luckily they didn't. If you don't go for the wheel, then you'll never get an opportunity to recover. I sat on for a rotation or two and then I did my part in the break. I even snagged a prime towards the end of the race.

The last thing you can think is, "I can't sustain this." Of course you can't. You absolutely can't try to just hold tempo, particularly in a crit, and hope to catch on. This is more like a 5min effort. If you become eventually resigned to being dropped, then hold whatever tempo will just get you to the end. Your best bet then is to try to pass those who get popped later.

BudFox

Well I finally switched out my bars to a 42cm with ergo bends and had an epiphany of front end control. What a difference, I only wish I had done it sooner!

waterrockets 

a) Yes

b) I don't think countersteering is complicated. The value in understanding it is that when a lot of riders go into a corner that scares them, they don't hit it hard enough. Crashes then come by riding out of the corner off the road, rather than fighting to stay in it and risk sliding. Usually there's plenty of traction for the fight. If countersteering is something you've practiced, it will become natural to just push on the bar, tighten the line, and get through the corner, rather than scream while flying out of it.

carpediemracing 

What did you have before? Any concrete measurement differences you can see (reach/drop)? Or was it just the hand position/angle on the new bars?

Grumpy McTrumpy

practicing countersteering can literally save your life on a motorcycle. especially on a mountain road when a car goes over the centerline in a curve.

it is the same on a pedal bike, although the rider input levels are enormously less.

AzTallRider

This is cracking me up. I'm in my first season racing, with a USAC racing age of 57 :-) You're a youngster, BudFox.

My 10th Cat5 start is tomorrow evening, and I've been working my way up the learning curve of knowing how to avoid being dropped in the crit's. Being dropped on a climb in a road race is of course an entirely different matter. It means you didn't have the power to stay in the pack, and your chances of reattaching are remote. But in a crit, it is usually the result of a poor decision, and if you correct for it quickly enough and hard enough, you can get it back. I've found the big thing to watch for in Cat5 races is the gap in front of the wheel you are on. You need to evaluate whether that guy is going to close his gap, and if he isn't, get around him and close it asap. I've gone from being lapped the first time out, to finishing in the sprint the last three races, 4th or 5th each time. And, of course, staying to the front of the pack makes life so much easier.

I've been doing a week night crit series, originally in order to get Cat4, which is needed for some Masters racing here. Turns out I've loved them, and they have greatly improved my bike handling. I agree that putting your weight forward, focused on the inside hand, is a definite key. You need to push that bike over, and let traction be your only limiter - it usually won't be.

BudFox

I went down 20mm total on the width and 5mm in the reach. The narrower bar does seem to provide more responsiveness to input. But I think that the flat ergo grip, as opposed to a semi-ergo rounded grip, allows me to get more surface contact on the bar, apply more pressure with my palms, and keep more weight low over the bars. Consequently, I set a couple new PRs (via Strava) last week on some descents. Can't wait to try them in a crit!

BudFox

Back to my original topic. I was dropped in a 3 lap, 50 mile hilly road race on Saturday. Not on the big hill, but on the big descent. My handling, while improved, could not overcome the effect of 20mph wind gusts on my 58mm wheels. I buried myself to catch up on the rollers and flats, only to get dropped again the second time around. I ended up spending most of the race in small chase groups and eventually solo, resulting in 60 minutes above threshold throughout the race. The next day I was tired, but my legs felt fine. I don't have cadence data, but I'm guessing that the heart was working harder than the legs. I think it's time to start doing strength intervals.

rog

umd wants to know if this was Wente.

BudFox

Yes, 35+cat4.

mattm

Could be positioning too; did you get stuck out in the wind before you got dropped? Seems like if you were sheltered you would have a better chance on hanging on.

BudFox

No, it was me braking on the descent that got me dropped.

rog

One of umd's video's from the 3s on the same course. The clip is a little long, skip ahead to 6:40 and 11:00 to get the descending.

https://www.youtube.com/wa​tch?v=StuYAu7Mfzk

jameskpolk

When chasing, is it generally better to try to bring (weaker) folks with you, or to go solo?

I'm new to this whole racing thing, as evidenced by the fact that I finished my first RR yesterday. As I just mentioned in the race report thread, a self-inflicted mechanical cost me a place in the break, and sent me chasing the pack. I spent the better part of a 8mi circuit working my way through the remnants of the peloton until I finally caught the main chase group. Along the way, I picked up 5 or 6 friends. Which seemed nice at the time, as it gave me a few opportunities to get out of the wind. But, each time we reeled in another person, I was the one who drove the pace to make the catch. Given the fact that these folks were OTB to start with, I assumed this to mean that I was stronger than them, rather than everyone being incredibly lazy. The last guy I swept up before joining the chase subsequently sandbagged, and ended up taking the finish for our group. Which, evidently, I'm still a bit bitter over.

So, what's the general advice when trying to catch back on? Presumably, anybody that I can catch up with is weaker than I am. Should I just use them for a second to catch a breather out of the wind, and then jump to the next person? Or should I try to pull a few people together to form a paceline, knowing that I might end up dragging someone with a better finish up to a position where they can use it against me?

cheers

aicabsolut

Weaker? No. Only work with people who seem like they have enough to help get you there. If they are struggling worse than you, leave them. Don't worry about if they will outsprint you later.

For those who did beat you in the sprint from a chase group, it doesn't mean they are sandbagging your chase. It means that they got an opportunity to recover after your group took them out of no-man's land. If you burned too many matches catching other dropped riders, that is not them sandbagging.

carpediemracing 

If you're off the back (versus "in a fragmented field that is chasing a small leading group" like a Battenkill where you may place top 20 just by picking off exploded break/field riders) the race is now about training. It's not like a running marathon where competitors get satisfaction just getting a time.

Once off the back you can start experimenting with tactics. You can explore your limits on how hard you can ride. You can try things you normally wouldn't in races.

How you "place" is no longer relevant. You should focus instead on extracting the maximum from your body.

forrest_m

Was unpleasantly reminded of another rule for chasing yesterday: if you are chasing solo, and you get picked up by a group coming from behind, you should sit out a turn or two to recover. If you try to pull through right away, there's an excellent chance you will just get dropped again. This rule applies double when the group includes the GC leader chasing on (after flatting) with several teammates.

jameskpolk

This, of course, makes perfect sense. A bit more time recovering of my own might have been a better idea.

CDR, I think the distinction I was wondering about was being OTB due to getting dropped, versus trying to catch back on after a mechanical/getting caught behind a crash/etc - a situation where, conceivably, one _could_ catch back on.

cheers