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BB Shell twist or misalignment question

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BB Shell twist or misalignment question

Old 10-13-19, 04:45 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by repechage
I have, actually not that uncommon, but in the traditional assembly era misalignment was tolerated.
The chances of using a piloted set of taps, Campagnolo, Cobra, or of similar design might work, but the threaded cartridge parts will be of loose fit.
Edco, eccentric locking.
Maybe they could be loose already and skewing on assembly, do the cartridge cups go in further?
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Old 10-14-19, 04:08 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by madpogue
Why not revert to cup & cone?
Might have to...I was trying to keep the Dura Ace 7700, and had gotten an Italian thread bottom bracket with Octalink. I'll have to go a bit older with the crank I guess.
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Old 10-14-19, 04:55 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc
I guess I need to get the threads re-cut, face and chase.
This. Its the only way to get parallelism. The only problem with this method is that you may lose a thread or two in the chasing process. The Park BB tool is piloted, and you can achieve some very straight threads. I've done this a thousand times.





This is the facing tool. You can see on the BB just how wavy and irregular the surface was. It may only be a tiny fraction of a millimeter that is taken off (in this case, it was a lot), but it all adds up.






If you do chase the threads using the threading die and there is a lot of swarf generated, you have at that point most likely weakened the threads. Its not the end of the world. Clean the threads with carb cleaner, or flush with mineral spirits. When dry, oil the threads with light oil like Tri-Flow, and let that "dry". Install your BB with blue threadlocker, and you should be able to get the full torque value required. If you CAN'T get the torque, i.e. you break loose and the threads strip, then the BB is... B-B-B-BUGGERED. Not to worry. The Velo Orange threadless BB is just the ticket. Works like a charm. In fact, you may just consider using one of these before doing anything else.
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Old 10-14-19, 07:30 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by repechage
Edco, eccentric locking.
The Edco has been out of production for many years, so sourcing one might be a problem. There are other threadless options as well. YST makes an inexpensive threadless cartridge. Mavic also made one, which required chamfering the ends of the shell. The Mavic is also out of production. Velo-Orange offers a threadless cartridge as well, and is still in production. Costs more than the YST, but probably better quality.

Originally Posted by NoControl
If you do chase the threads using the threading die and there is a lot of swarf generated, you have at that point most likely weakened the threads. Its not the end of the world. Clean the threads with carb cleaner, or flush with mineral spirits. When dry, oil the threads with light oil like Tri-Flow, and let that "dry". Install your BB with blue threadlocker, and you should be able to get the full torque value required. If you CAN'T get the torque, i.e. you break loose and the threads strip, then the BB is... B-B-B-BUGGERED. Not to worry. The Velo Orange threadless BB is just the ticket. Works like a charm. In fact, you may just consider using one of these before doing anything else.
Another option, if the shell is currently English or metric thread, is to ream and tap the shell for Italian threads and use any Italian thread bottom bracket. Some shops may still have the proper tools from Bicycle Research:

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Old 10-14-19, 08:48 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by madpogue
Why not revert to cup & cone?
Originally Posted by jdawginsc
Might have to...I was trying to keep the Dura Ace 7700, and had gotten an Italian thread bottom bracket with Octalink. I'll have to go a bit older with the crank I guess.
...at this point, this is what I would personally try. Somebody apparently rode that thing hard with a regular old school BB in it to get it to the point where it looks like it does now. I think (from a distance) that's your easiest workaround. Probably the cheapest, too.
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Old 10-14-19, 10:07 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
The Edco has been out of production for many years, so sourcing one might be a problem. There are other threadless options as well. YST makes an inexpensive threadless cartridge. Mavic also made one, which required chamfering the ends of the shell. The Mavic is also out of production. Velo-Orange offers a threadless cartridge as well, and is still in production. Costs more than the YST, but probably better quality.



Another option, if the shell is currently English or metric thread, is to ream and tap the shell for Italian threads and use any Italian thread bottom bracket. Some shops may still have the proper tools from Bicycle Research.
I've heard of this, but never seen it done. Since the Italian threaded BBs use RH threads on both sides, is there enough metal in the ID of the BB shell to clear out all of the ISO threads, and cut in the Italian threads?
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Old 10-14-19, 10:14 AM
  #32  
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OP indicates it's Italian threaded at present. Recall that he tested putting it in backward (swapping sides) just to prove out alignment issues.
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Old 10-14-19, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by madpogue
OP indicates it's Italian threaded at present. Recall that he tested putting it in backward (swapping sides) just to prove out alignment issues.
DOH!

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Old 10-14-19, 03:02 PM
  #34  
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Yep, it's Italian. NOt sure it got out of alignment or if it was cut that way, but the sides don't match up squarely, even though the threads are perfect and solid.
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Old 10-14-19, 03:12 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc
Yep, it's Italian. NOt sure it got out of alignment or if it was cut that way, but the sides don't match up squarely, even though the threads are perfect and solid.
If this is truly the case it needs to be done with extreme caution, as indicated earlier, there will likely be no second chance, if it goes south it escalates to a whole new level.

I wouldn't trust it to anyone, sorry but the ones who still have the tools are likely out of practice and even when they were on, it was often a crap shoot.

I would go with cup and cone and see how it goes, then a framebuilder would be the only avenue for a rework IMO.
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Old 10-14-19, 04:48 PM
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@jdawginsc, brother, have those threads chased by someone with a set of Italian BB taps. This would be your best option right now. I'm confident that this would straighten it all out. I was unaware that your threads were Italian in the first place. Re-threading and milling the side flat will give you what you need. Temper all of this with the fact that the Velo Orange BB is only $70.
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Old 10-14-19, 06:03 PM
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.
...I have a set of piloted BB taps, and I know how to use them. I would still try an old school cup and cone bottom bracket as my first fix and see how it works. One of the reasons cup and cone went on for so long as the standard setup for bicycle BB's is exactly this...they tolerate misalignment better than a lot of other bearing arrangements.

If you can get the thing working this way, removing whatever metal shavings from the BB shell that will be produced by retapping it is money you could have spent on a different crank that works. You might get away with it, because a sealed unit BB bearing assembly probably doesn't require as much support for the thread cups that lock it in place, which is why they can make them out of plastic. But if it were me, even though I have the taps, I'd try the cup and cone route first.

Just in case you haven't worked on a BB with both sides Rh threaded before, the fixed cup needs to be torqued in there pretty tight. I usually use some blue Loctite as well on the fixed side, because I've had at least one back out on me in use. Which is annoying.
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Old 10-14-19, 10:12 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
The Edco has been out of production for many years, so sourcing one might be a problem.
Velo Classique

wayne has quite a few in inventory
both lengths
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Old 10-15-19, 11:19 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...I have a set of piloted BB taps, and I know how to use them. I would still try an old school cup and cone bottom bracket as my first fix and see how it works. One of the reasons cup and cone went on for so long as the standard setup for bicycle BB's is exactly this...they tolerate misalignment better than a lot of other bearing arrangements.

If you can get the thing working this way, removing whatever metal shavings from the BB shell that will be produced by retapping it is money you could have spent on a different crank that works. You might get away with it, because a sealed unit BB bearing assembly probably doesn't require as much support for the thread cups that lock it in place, which is why they can make them out of plastic. But if it were me, even though I have the taps, I'd try the cup and cone route first.

Just in case you haven't worked on a BB with both sides Rh threaded before, the fixed cup needs to be torqued in there pretty tight. I usually use some blue Loctite as well on the fixed side, because I've had at least one back out on me in use. Which is annoying.
I am leaning cup and cone and getting a different crankset. I had bought the Dura Ace 7700 stuff from Brewsmith, so my original plan to go utilitarian got upgraded.

A mismatch of parts cranksets and derailleurs never hurt anyone...! Campy crank/BB and Shimano 7700 derailleurs, cassette, and 7900 shifters with a Shimano 600 TC set of levers!

Lots of experience with cup and cone, since I only got back into bike building several years ago, and my first cartridge bearing was on the Basso I built.
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Old 10-23-19, 06:06 PM
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No bueno...


Bueno...
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Old 10-23-19, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc


No bueno...


Bueno...
Atta boy, ef the disposable cartridge nonsense.
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Old 10-23-19, 06:20 PM
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That Fixed cup side looks No Bueno to me.
look at the spindle, it is not centered in the cup bore. The cup is tight but the face is off, not perpendicular to the shaft center.
I have seen this, had a bike like this, a Phil Wood fixed the problem, this was before the Edco eccentric lock unit.
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Old 10-23-19, 07:11 PM
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Doh! looks like you're right, wonder what the last BB that ran for awhile looked like when it came out?

Still, I would run it for awhile just to see what really happens as long as this BB can be sacrificed without losing too much sleep.
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Old 10-23-19, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage
That Fixed cup side looks No Bueno to me.
look at the spindle, it is not centered in the cup bore. The cup is tight but the face is off, not perpendicular to the shaft center.
I have seen this, had a bike like this, a Phil Wood fixed the problem, this was before the Edco eccentric lock unit.
Correct. Obviously the cartridge solution wasn't happening, so I went with a cup and cone. Even that is showing askew.

Will bite the bullet and see if an LBS will re-chase the threads and face parallel. The bearings are either grabby with no play, or smooth flowing with lots of play in the spindle.

Thus the reason the frame was $35 plus shipping.
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Old 10-23-19, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Doh! looks like you're right, wonder what the last BB that ran for awhile looked like when it came out?

Still, I would run it for awhile just to see what really happens as long as this BB can be sacrificed without losing too much sleep.
Don't really want to sacrifice that one. No way I can get the spindle to be tight enough for no play, without binding.
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Old 10-23-19, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue
Why not revert to cup & cone?
Originally Posted by jdawginsc
Might have to...I was trying to keep the Dura Ace 7700, and had gotten an Italian thread bottom bracket with Octalink. I'll have to go a bit older with the crank I guess.
The original Dura Ace BB-7700 Octalink uses an independent bearing system with a combination of needle and thrust bearings.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...m-bracket.html



Mine came without the center sleeve. I'm not 100% sure, but I think they may be the Dura Ace bottom brackets with a black center sleeve. They do show up on E-Bay, either used, or NOS.
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Old 10-23-19, 07:59 PM
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Oh, another thought. You can get both plastic and aluminum adjustable threaded ends, at least for some of the Shimano bottom brackets. I've avoided the plastic threaded inserts, but perhaps this would be a good application for one.
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Old 10-23-19, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc
Don't really want to sacrifice that one. No way I can get the spindle to be tight enough for no play, without binding.
Well then it would seem to be untenable so you will have to really get after it to resolve.

Are the cups actually flat to the shell when they are tight?

If so and this is that far off, chasing, facing, retapping may not be able to get there.

I'm going back to a frame builder, a good one that has seen it all evaluating this, seems like you may be up you know what creek without a paddle.
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Old 10-23-19, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jdawginsc
Correct. Obviously the cartridge solution wasn't happening, so I went with a cup and cone. Even that is showing askew.

Will bite the bullet and see if an LBS will re-chase the threads and face parallel. The bearings are either grabby with no play, or smooth flowing with lots of play in the spindle.

Thus the reason the frame was $35 plus shipping.
As we have discussed before, no regular LBS even with the correct tools in good working order will be able to correct this unless they are well known for doing it regularly and recently. I would have to have a good face to face personal recommendation from a trusted source. Things like this often end in "oh we tried, it didn't work out, now its scrap, sorry". This is a job for a frame builder, period IMHO.
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Old 10-24-19, 03:12 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by merziac
As we have discussed before, no regular LBS even with the correct tools in good working order will be able to correct this unless they are well known for doing it regularly and recently. I would have to have a good face to face personal recommendation from a trusted source. Things like this often end in "oh we tried, it didn't work out, now its scrap, sorry". This is a job for a frame builder, period IMHO.
That is basically where I am at unfortunately. It's a decent frame, but I might be on the river without the paddle as you say. Sometimes you lose on a good deal...haha.

On the other hand, it might be an item, since it is not junk, that eventually I send out to an expert and get it restored completely.

Or it becomes the frame that hangs in my living room for my pallet board bicycle wall...
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