Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?
#376
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#378
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#379
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Typically braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible. Goes as well for cars in traffic as well as bombing down downhills with a bicycle.
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If you're going slow then yes, braking can decrease the turn radius. But when you're approaching limits of friction braking mid turn will require you to allocate friction for braking instead of turning. There's only so much friction to go around and thus it's a well known piece of wisdom for any rubber on tarmac speedsport that any grip you use for braking cannot be used for cornering and vice versa.
Typically braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible. Goes as well for cars in traffic as well as bombing down downhills with a bicycle.
Typically braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible. Goes as well for cars in traffic as well as bombing down downhills with a bicycle.
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The only real point to this otherwise utterly pointless thread: to get to page 17 (and beyond).
So, consider this post a public service; just a small contribution to a worthy cause.
So, consider this post a public service; just a small contribution to a worthy cause.
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Braking at maximum lean
For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking. For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the apex of turns.
--Jobst Brandt, 2003-08-01
Last edited by terrymorse; 09-17-19 at 06:13 PM.
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Don't know about "most" - in my case, I can ride 300kms on my drop bar road bike and on my flat bar with double bar ends MTB too. But to be able to use the drops, my bar is only 4cm lower than my saddle, which means an ugly sky-pointing stem. The original quill stem put the bar 8cm lower than the saddle, it looked good but I couldn't use the drops for more than 10-15mins.
#386
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Bars?! I don't need your stinking bars!
#387
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Not true. The fastest technique through turns is by braking into the apex.
Braking at maximum lean
For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking. For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the apex of turns.
--Jobst Brandt, 2003-08-01
Braking at maximum lean
For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking. For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the apex of turns.
--Jobst Brandt, 2003-08-01
Yet here you come out saying braking while cornering is a good idea. Yet you fail to read between the lines of the quote you posted where it can be quite easily interpreted that braking into the apex is somewhat of a pushing it to the limits maneuver where a skilled rider has through vast experience and training learned how gauge the levels of grip and uses that knowledge to do something fast but also pretty extreme in every sense.
When you brake while cornering you're using cornering grip for braking. If you exceed the available grip you wipe out instantly. While braking while cornering can be done successfully and many experienced racers do it, it still carries an inherent and quite immense risk which also sometimes realizes in pro racing. To me, a casual rider it is a risk I'm unwilling to take since I'm not making money off the speed I descend at.
You know what skilled racers also do which can be done successfully with few ill effects but also carries an immense risk of failure and severe ill effects? Doping. Also not something I'd recommend for anyone but it does objectively make you faster if that's the goal.
#388
Non omnino gravis
It doesn't matter what vehicle you're in or on, if it has tires on it you have a variable in play, and that is: maximum amount of available grip. You can use that grip to accelerate or decelerate, or you can use it to turn. Doing one borrows from the other.
Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.
Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.
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It doesn't matter what vehicle you're in or on, if it has tires on it you have a variable in play, and that is: maximum amount of available grip. You can use that grip to accelerate or decelerate, or you can use it to turn. Doing one borrows from the other.
Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.
Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.
Lightened braking, which fits in with why being in the drops is better. More control over your braking. Unlike the guys on the hoods with the on/off braking.
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braking is an art form, so is traction
yes it is a drop bar, and yes I use the drops in the snow, on the snow. No it is not fixed, it is freewheel.
I also know that it is possible to save a front wheel washout.
yes it is a drop bar, and yes I use the drops in the snow, on the snow. No it is not fixed, it is freewheel.
I also know that it is possible to save a front wheel washout.
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Reach and stack really affect this conversation.
Generally drop bars even at 440mm are narrower than flat bars. Narrow also matters for steering and aero.
I would say if you don’t use them much get a higher stack and a shallower drop handlebar. So then you can use both and have plenty of hamd options.
Also, even for the non racer I’d suggest a slightly aero drop bar. The flatter top section of the bar tops is heavenly to me compared to a round bar. Also, that “additional” position just short of the hoods being flat is really nice on an aero bar for comfort. Just buy one without much change in reach.
Generally drop bars even at 440mm are narrower than flat bars. Narrow also matters for steering and aero.
I would say if you don’t use them much get a higher stack and a shallower drop handlebar. So then you can use both and have plenty of hamd options.
Also, even for the non racer I’d suggest a slightly aero drop bar. The flatter top section of the bar tops is heavenly to me compared to a round bar. Also, that “additional” position just short of the hoods being flat is really nice on an aero bar for comfort. Just buy one without much change in reach.
There is still a purpose for products like the Nitto Technomic and Tallux stems. The giraffe effect is not necessarily a bad thing - put cycling comfort over style. And while one may sacrifice short-term speed with the taller stem (if you actually do cycle at your maximum effort) you'll probably fatigue faster due to discomfort. I think better comfort enables longer endurance at a reasonably high average speed.
If you can maintain 17 mph in drops for say, 20 minutes, and with higher bars you can maintain 15 mph for 2 hours, in which case can you go farther in a given ride? And in the longer ride, you have a greater need for varying hand positions just because of duration - so it's better to have a raised drop bar than an upright "3-speed bar," nice as those are.
Last edited by Road Fan; 09-18-19 at 07:16 AM.
#393
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#394
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It doesn't matter what vehicle you're in or on, if it has tires on it you have a variable in play, and that is: maximum amount of available grip. You can use that grip to accelerate or decelerate, or you can use it to turn. Doing one borrows from the other.
Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.
Braking inside a corner means you entered that corner with too much speed. The fastest line through the corner is the one without braking.
#395
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Experienced descenders--including pros--brake into curves. So does every race car driver. The technique even has a name: trail-braking. It involves braking hard as you approach the turn, then easing off the brake as you turn into it. I use this technique on every turn that requires hard braking, letting off the brake completely somewhere near the apex.
How Trail Braking Makes You a Faster Driver
#396
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And here you come out saying "braking while cornering is a bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible".
You are incorrect.
Every skilled descender brakes into curves. It is not only fast, it is safe. Simple physics shows this. I literally brake into every fast turn.
Stop fear mongering.
You are incorrect.
Every skilled descender brakes into curves. It is not only fast, it is safe. Simple physics shows this. I literally brake into every fast turn.
Stop fear mongering.
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Let me help you with an article aimed towards cyclists, not race car drivers: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/zeps-h...ners-2015.html
#398
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Yeah, you can't get multiple hand positions without a drop bar....
#399
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To quote someone from earlier "congrats on twisting something so far that it is no longer in the same context." Braking from the hoods is now "on/off braking"? Give me a break...pun intended. "On/off braking" implies that those of us who brake from the hoods either can't stop or can't control our speed or are flipping over the bars. None of that is true.
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Incorrect, on both accounts.
Experienced descenders--including pros--brake into curves. So does every race car driver. The technique even has a name: trail-braking. It involves braking hard as you approach the turn, then easing off the brake as you turn into it. I use this technique on every turn that requires hard braking, letting off the brake completely somewhere near the apex.
How Trail Braking Makes You a Faster Driver
Experienced descenders--including pros--brake into curves. So does every race car driver. The technique even has a name: trail-braking. It involves braking hard as you approach the turn, then easing off the brake as you turn into it. I use this technique on every turn that requires hard braking, letting off the brake completely somewhere near the apex.
How Trail Braking Makes You a Faster Driver
JAG
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