Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Did a paid bike fit work for you?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Did a paid bike fit work for you?

Old 06-12-17, 03:27 AM
  #1  
johngwheeler
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 820
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Did a paid bike fit work for you?

I'm thinking of paying for bike fit at an LBS, and was wondering whether there are any particular things to look for in a bike fit service, or general advice on what I need to tell / ask the fitter.

The shop I'm considering seems to have a dedicated fitting area, but I'm not sure if they have an particular fitting system. I would be taking my own bike, rather than using a special "fitting bike".

Have you had a professional fit done and were you happy with the result?
johngwheeler is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 05:01 AM
  #2  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 5,029

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2409 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times in 81 Posts
I have not had a professional fit, but I would suggest simply trying to get local recommendations of fitters/shops in your area from other cyclists. What I do think is likely the case is that not all fitters and systems are equal. Not sure where you reside, but you could post a query in this thread, or alternatively in the appropriate forum here Regional Discussions - Bike Forums
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 05:27 AM
  #3  
datlas 
Beyond Bogus
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 29,368

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 414 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9390 Post(s)
Liked 272 Times in 177 Posts
Not to be a smartass, but what are your concerns and what are your goals?
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 05:49 AM
  #4  
pagh
Fedberg
 
pagh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kolding, Denmark
Posts: 26

Bikes: Giant TCR 0 and Willier MTB.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I´ve just got a bikefit last week. So far it´s been very positive.
Had problems with my right hip, knee and lower back. Only 32 years old, so it should not be a problem.

Hip and knee pain is gone, and also a bit of the back pain. The rest of the back pain is because of too weak a core and too tight legs. Need to do some stretches.
The fit is based on Retül and the fitter is a pro triathlet. Took his time and the fit is based on my body and what it is capable of.

Have gotten some excercises and then a follow up in 1 months time - free.

Last edited by pagh; 06-12-17 at 05:50 AM. Reason: Spelling
pagh is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 06:08 AM
  #5  
fried bake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Problems a bikefit solved for me:

Left shoulder pain (adjusted bar length and stem height: zipp sl70, 0 degree stem)
Saddle sores (leg length discrepancy: wedge and shim, plus new saddle: selle smp well)
Pain in left toes (which i thought was gout: proper alignment on saddle and stabilized foot on pedals from wedges)
Ability to sustain power over duration of activity (if you are uncomfortable, all adjustments while riding rob you of power--not to mention the pain)

If you find the right fitter, it's a great investment. The hardest thing is wrapping your mind around the cost, but one way to think of it is how much you will save on other "solutions", for example: New bib shorts to address your saddle pain, New saddles to address saddle pain, New shoes to address hot spots. Plus lost time off bike while things heal up.
fried bake is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 07:32 AM
  #6  
CMBravo
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Miami,Fl
Posts: 36

Bikes: Fuji Altamira 1.3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fried bake View Post
Problems a bikefit solved for me:

Left shoulder pain (adjusted bar length and stem height: zipp sl70, 0 degree stem)
Saddle sores (leg length discrepancy: wedge and shim, plus new saddle: selle smp well)
Pain in left toes (which i thought was gout: proper alignment on saddle and stabilized foot on pedals from wedges)
Ability to sustain power over duration of activity (if you are uncomfortable, all adjustments while riding rob you of power--not to mention the pain)

If you find the right fitter, it's a great investment. The hardest thing is wrapping your mind around the cost, but one way to think of it is how much you will save on other "solutions", for example: New bib shorts to address your saddle pain, New saddles to address saddle pain, New shoes to address hot spots. Plus lost time off bike while things heal up.
what is a reasonable price to pay for a fitting.? I was told 125.00dollars. I have a Fuji 1.3 Altamira 2016. Store keep said 45 dollars extra do to bike geometry?... I dont get it
CMBravo is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 07:57 AM
  #7  
fried bake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CMBravo View Post
what is a reasonable price to pay for a fitting.? I was told 125.00dollars. I have a Fuji 1.3 Altamira 2016. Store keep said 45 dollars extra do to bike geometry?... I dont get it
it can cost up to $600 dollars, but the average range is usually closer to $250 or so. sorry, but i don't know what they mean by "do bike geometry" though.
fried bake is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 08:18 AM
  #8  
Quiglesnbits
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Stuttgart, DE
Posts: 100
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
whatever you do, MAKE SURE that it includes followups. If they want to charge to revisit and tweak, they are not worth your time.

EDIT: Doing the geometry with Retul most likely means they will trace parts of your bike to create a 3D model and report to provide you with close accuracy details of your bike as it is built. It was included with the only Retul fit I received, but I paid 250. EDIT EDIT: you definitely want to know the coordinates of your final fit, so that you can replicate it in the future on a different bike, or with different parts (IE, switch pedals and have a new stack height with your cleats)

Last edited by Quiglesnbits; 06-12-17 at 08:22 AM.
Quiglesnbits is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 08:28 AM
  #9  
ljp3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 54

Bikes: CDale Synapse Hi-Mod 3, Bianchi Oltre XR.1, Giant Anthem Advanced 29er

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Kind of mixed results with fittings.
1. The fittings that were performed by the LBS where I purchased the bike never worked out for me, I think they were generally close and they were included with the purchase. I would get pain in the lower back, and in the arch of my left foot.

2. The first paid fitting I did was performed by a fitter recommended to me, cost was $125. He didn't really have a "named" system except watching me peddle, asking questions, make adjustments...rinse repeat. I was happy with the fitting the pain in the back and foot went away. Fitting lasted 18 months.

3. Third fitting I had lost 20 lbs, my core was a lot stronger, and the lower back pain came back. I did the Retul fitting system, it took 3 hours. The Retul had more components on hand that we could change out, we changed out saddles and stems a few times. I am happy with the results and have no plans to use anything else in the future. I can't remember the cost but it was over $200.

On all the fitting follow-ups were free. Have zero idea what your fitter means by bike geometry.
ljp3 is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 10:31 AM
  #10  
CMBravo
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Miami,Fl
Posts: 36

Bikes: Fuji Altamira 1.3

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fried bake View Post
it can cost up to $600 dollars, but the average range is usually closer to $250 or so. sorry, but i don't know what they mean by "do bike geometry" though.
,THANKS. so considering the LBS has a good reputation, 125.00 is actually a good deal .Now ,what should one be looking for?or expecting? I imagine, that parts ,accessories etc is priced separate .Maybe bring an experience rider along
CMBravo is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 10:34 AM
  #11  
growlerdinky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 634

Bikes: 1980-82 Colnago Super, 2014 Giant TCR Composite 2, 1999 Bianchi Campione, 1985 Schwinn Super Le Tour

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
After riding for 30 years, I got a $150 Guru fit last year.

It was by far the best $150 I've spent on cycling.
growlerdinky is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 10:57 AM
  #12  
99Klein 
Senior Member
 
99Klein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Posts: 1,088

Bikes: 99 Klein Quantum, 2012 Cannondale CAAD10 5, Specialized Tarmac Comp, Foundry Thresher, Fuji Sportif

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Depends on your fitter. Just because you pay them, doesn't mean they know what they are doing. I've had three over the years. Some better than others. Dynamic fitting is the only way to go.
99Klein is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 12:27 PM
  #13  
fried bake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by CMBravo View Post
,THANKS. so considering the LBS has a good reputation, 125.00 is actually a good deal .Now ,what should one be looking for?or expecting? I imagine, that parts ,accessories etc is priced separate .Maybe bring an experience rider along
Treat it like a doctor visit--if he prescribes a change, ask for an explanation of the reason for the change and perhaps a cause of the symptom which it is intended to cure.
fried bake is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:09 PM
  #14  
thegreydog
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Just recently dealt with this issue myself. I have been riding over a year now, close to 4k miles. Not wanting to spend money for bike fit and only having minor nags, I invited a friend over and setup bike. I have followed all online diagrams and measurements and angles for at home setup. So everything is setup correct, still having issue, has to be the saddle, Numbness in the front area and quad/hamstring/knee twinges. I research for days and decide on Fabric Scoop Flat Pro. Installed seat, followed rules for lining up, invited friend back and this time even bought a plumb bob to make sure my seat was forward/back enough. First ride everything felt great, then a couple days later the nag I was getting in my knee only got worse and my hamstrings were locking up. By the third ride, my saddle and area was great, but leg muscles we really janky and cramping. Finally fedup and sore took it to the bike store, I set on bike and spun pedals a few times. He said it was way off and asked if I wanted adjusted. Regardless of cost, I was in pain. Come to find out, my left knee was popping out while coming up and going a couple inches left, this was due to my seat being too high and my left leg longer. He set seat height based on shorter leg, brought seat back to allow clearance for left to stay in line and lined my cleats up. All in all about thirty mins. Cost was $30. Best money I have spent thus far. Felt a little different at first, but no pain. With that said, a seat and cleat adjustment may get what you want without the high cost associated with a fit. I guess I never thought about just getting that done. Sorry if that was wordy, but the 3 o'clock caffeine is moving..
thegreydog is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:12 PM
  #15  
drewguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 382

Bikes: Trek Domane 4.3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Yes - had professional fit, and yes, it was worth it.

I think if you have your bike, it's better to be fitted on it than on some "system", given you'll be riding your bike. If you're getting measured for a bike (custom or otherwise) that's a different matter.

I should add that the best evidence of how much better it is, other than the greater comfort on my bike, is that when I got on my older bike, which I thought had been reasonably comfortable I couldn't believe how poorly it actually fit me. Don't know what I was thinking for that long.

Last edited by drewguy; 06-12-17 at 03:19 PM.
drewguy is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:20 PM
  #16  
memebag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,597

Bikes: 2017 Cannondale CAAD12 105, 2014 Giant Escape City

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 820 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I had a free fit when I bought my bike last August. I've ridden over 3,500 miles on that fit and the bike feels great. It was supposed to be a Guru Fit but the Guru machine was acting weird, so I just had a normal human fit.
memebag is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:34 PM
  #17  
ddub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Retul fit. It has changed my position a bit but no problems. It's great to know your #'s for stack and reach. Ability to duplicate your fit to other bikes is a real plus. That said follow-up is a good idea. Just to make certain you are truly comfy with the result. Money well spent. YMMV
ddub is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:42 PM
  #18  
KevinF
Keep on climbing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Marlborough, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,179

Bikes: 2004 Calfee Tetra Pro

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've had two "real" bike fits over the years. Both were from shops that more-or-less specialize in bike fitting. i.e., they'll happily sell you stuff, but fittings is what they do. I'm in the Boston area and there's no shortage of shops around here.

Fittings don't succeed or fail because of the "system" in use; they succeed (or fail) because of the relationship between you and the person doing the fitting. You need to be able to state your goals (alleviate back pain, get a more aerodynamic position, etc), you need to be able to state what you feel in different positions (i.e., too stretched, too upright, etc) and the fitter needs to be able to take your inputs and adjust the bike fit accordingly.

The same person can be comfortably fit onto the same bike in several different positions; if you can't specify what your goals are, it's not going to work. If you do know what your goals are, it's probably some of the best money you'll ever spend. Price out physical therapy sometime to see what repairing injured knees / hips / etc. will set you back.
KevinF is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:49 PM
  #19  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 7,293

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1812 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 198 Times in 147 Posts
I never had one. I did get advice 41 years ago that was literally lifechanging: to buy at shop discount the last year's Fuji Professional sitting in the basement of the shop I worked at as a second year bike racer. Fuji Pros were very steep, very high BB criterium bikes. My forte was long races and big climbs. The more of each (hours and feet climbed) the better. That Pro had 64 seat tube and 75 head tube angles and a decently long top tube, putting the headset far forward. Very short chainstays. 175 cranks. From the first ride, it was "wow!". I rode it very easy my first time around my 45 mile training loop (the still famous "Allis Loop" west of Boston). Matched my best time ever. 3 days later easily took a couple of minutes off that nad the times kept falling all the rest of the summer. I went on to race some very hard races on it, put in days of 175 miles. That bike just felt like part of me; that it could extract every resource my body had.

I have used that bike's geometry for the basis of every bike since then. Yes, there has been some real changes over the years. But not in my basic position: cranks, seat height and setback, and where my shoulders should be. I've had a few bikes that didn't measure up but every time I returned to that basic position, it was "oh yeah!".

So I have never felt any need for a fit. But if a $250 fit got me what that shop mechanic's free advice did. it would have been the best bargain of my cycling life.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:53 PM
  #20  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 7,293

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1812 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 198 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
I've had two "real" bike fits over the years. Both were from shops that more-or-less specialize in bike fitting. i.e., they'll happily sell you stuff, but fittings is what they do. I'm in the Boston area and there's no shortage of shops around here.

Fittings don't succeed or fail because of the "system" in use; they succeed (or fail) because of the relationship between you and the person doing the fitting. You need to be able to state your goals (alleviate back pain, get a more aerodynamic position, etc), you need to be able to state what you feel in different positions (i.e., too stretched, too upright, etc) and the fitter needs to be able to take your inputs and adjust the bike fit accordingly.

The same person can be comfortably fit onto the same bike in several different positions; if you can't specify what your goals are, it's not going to work. If you do know what your goals are, it's probably some of the best money you'll ever spend. Price out physical therapy sometime to see what repairing injured knees / hips / etc. will set you back.
Kevin, can you tell us those shops? I used to race out of Boston a long time ago. Only get back occasionally but like to stay as up as I can to what is happening there. I would love to know the names and shops that are carrying on the work.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 01:59 PM
  #21  
KevinF
Keep on climbing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Marlborough, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,179

Bikes: 2004 Calfee Tetra Pro

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Kevin, can you tell us those shops? I used to race out of Boston a long time ago. Only get back occasionally but like to stay as up as I can to what is happening there. I would love to know the names and shops that are carrying on the work.

Ben
One has gone out of business (or been moved or renamed or something), but it was Paul Fabish Sports out of Connecticut. He ran a coaching / fitting shop, although he was happy to sell you a new bike as well. He's the one that sold me my custom Calfee which is about 15 years old now.

The other is very much in business: Fit Werx - Rider First Bike Fitting. Rider Matched Bike Sales. with a couple New England locations. I went to them a few years ago because I'm a bit older / stiffer, etc. so they tweaked things a tiny bit. I finished a hilly century yesterday; feeling great today!
KevinF is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 02:10 PM
  #22  
topslop1
Senior Member
 
topslop1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: Canyon Endurance CF SL Disc 7.0, Salsa Pony Rustler GX1, Cannondale Synapse 105

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1483 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
yes
topslop1 is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 02:32 PM
  #23  
dynawolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Texas
Posts: 69

Bikes: Spec Roubaix, Trek Superfly

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I bought a new bike two weeks ago and negotiated a discounted full fitting as part of the package. They switched out the stem at no cost to me. My cleats were re-positioned and handlebars rotated. The process took about four hours and it was the best thing I have ever done. I am 53 and the back cannot tolerate a poor position for more than 30 minutes. I did a 4-1/2 hour ride yesterday.

The fit is on your bike, with your pedals, seat, cycling shorts...etc. The fitting has follow ups. We raised my seat a few mils after a week. I am supposed to come in for a full review at the 90 day mark. I am very happy with it.
dynawolf is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 05:57 PM
  #24  
johngwheeler
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 820
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Not to be a smartass, but what are your concerns and what are your goals?
Fair question:

1) Comfort for long distance rides
2) Optimal performance
3) Prevention of injury

I'm not very comfortable on my second bike (Giant TCX) which I would like to use for longer rides. My main "complaints" are:

i) I feel like there is too much weight on my hands, and that I'm "tipping over" the bars too much. The handlebar drop from the saddle is 5-6cm and I'm more used to have them nearly level.

2) I get some discomfort in my upper back after a hour or so, even if I try to keep my shoulders relaxed and my arms slightly bent

3) I really can't get comfortable on the saddle which is very hard and narrow for most of its length - I've just order a Fizik saddle to see it this helps.
johngwheeler is offline  
Old 06-12-17, 09:16 PM
  #25  
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,147

Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone

Mentioned: 690 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4069 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by johngwheeler View Post
Fair question:

1) Comfort for long distance rides
2) Optimal performance
3) Prevention of injury

I'm not very comfortable on my second bike (Giant TCX) which I would like to use for longer rides. My main "complaints" are:

i) I feel like there is too much weight on my hands, and that I'm "tipping over" the bars too much. The handlebar drop from the saddle is 5-6cm and I'm more used to have them nearly level.

2) I get some discomfort in my upper back after a hour or so, even if I try to keep my shoulders relaxed and my arms slightly bent

3) I really can't get comfortable on the saddle which is very hard and narrow for most of its length - I've just order a Fizik saddle to see it this helps.
I think you would probably benefit from a good fitter. Definitely with items 1 & 2. Item 3 is pretty much an individual preference thing, although a good fitter could likely make suggestions.

I paid $40 once for a terrible fitting. I got two terrible free fittings with bike purchases. Now I have a fitter that I use who is great, I go see him before I make a bike purchase now. He has set up all 4 of my bikes. I go see him regularly for my TT bike, once or twice a year- basically any time I have a question/issue I can't solve by other means. He never charges me for my follow ups, even though he's supposed to. I love the guy.
Heathpack is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.