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$500 ‘Speeding Tickets’ for Riding BIKES Over 15 MPH

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$500 ‘Speeding Tickets’ for Riding BIKES Over 15 MPH

Old 06-28-19, 10:35 PM
  #26  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Did anybody watch the video? The fact that these harsh cycling laws and penalties have come into effect during the growing popularity of the e-bike and amid the increasing rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians is just a coincidence? One really needs to stretch his level of irrationality to believe that one.

So you're saying that somebody invented the bike bell and municipalities and governments adopted them into law even though informing people in a conversation voice already worked?

Trust me on this one, don't try to reinvent the wheel, and don't go off on tangents. Stick with what works, is universally acceptable, and already has a legal precedent in place.
Funny, because I announce my passes and pretty much everyone knows what to do, and I am frequently thanked. On the other hand, I see people all the time ringing their bell and nobody moves.

Mass. law and NH law don't require bells.

And "legal precedent" doesn't mean what you think it does.
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Old 06-29-19, 12:44 AM
  #27  
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When motorcycles collide head-on at 60mph you hear everyone saying ''Yeah, we should reduce the speed limit to 16mph.''

Oh wait, no, that doesn't happen does it.
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Old 06-29-19, 05:22 AM
  #28  
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I don't think speed limits will work because they're basically unenforceable without an unsustainable level of patrolling. Speed limits obviously don't work for cars for this reason --I virtually never see anyone driving the urban streets within speed limits on major thoroughfares and rarely do I ever see anyone pulled over for it. Assigning any significant numbers of officers to do this on a bike path would be a crazy misuse of scarce policing resources, wildly disproportionate to the level of danger posed by this speeding.

I also think speed isn't the real problem here, one can do plenty of damage at 15 mph if one just goes blindly into the oncoming lane. I see a lot of people do this, and it usually is someone who refuses to slow down to wait until the oncoming lane is clear before they pass. I should probably not use the word "blindly" because I've had people do this right in front of me, basically playing chicken and staring right at me. No idea why they expect I'm going to swerve off the path under those circumstances since I really don't have time to evaluate what kind of surface I'm going to end up on if I do.

I also think that more "selective" enforcement really opens up a can of worms for police, who are going to end up dealing with a lot of complaints about various forms of profiling. The more stopping of people for minor infractions you do, the more you will be accused of making pretextual stops.

Generally, the US has a bad habit of expecting good results from criminalizing behaviors, and this is yet another example, albeit a petty one. It's not going to make anyone feel safer.
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Old 06-29-19, 05:36 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
]...amid the increasing rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians.
Do tell, what rising rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians? Where, measured how, and since when?
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Old 06-29-19, 06:21 AM
  #30  
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The logical point here is if speed is your holy grail, a MUP is no place for you.
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Old 06-29-19, 06:43 AM
  #31  
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"B-but it's so EASY to pass old people and little kids there, they're like sitting ducks. I feel like Lance Indurain when I'm on the MUP."
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Old 06-29-19, 02:59 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Do tell, what rising rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians? Where, measured how, and since when?
Do you watch the news? If not you can start with, BF and the title post. It tends to be a good source of cycling safety news and information. Just do your homework.

Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
The logical point here is if speed is your holy grail, a MUP is no place for you.
Says who? The ones I ride on have no posted speed limit, and what's logical would be to take the kids to the playground where they have exclusive use of the environment. Someone invented this area a long time ago because they figured out that kids and adult's recreation don't mix very well.

Any decent parent would know better than to put their kids in harms way. Don't expect the world to babysit your children. That's your responsibility.
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Old 06-29-19, 03:03 PM
  #33  
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Unfortunately a few BF regulars simply do not understand that the "multi" in MUP means it is not intended to be a bike highway. You could sit them down for a personal lecture from the board of the managing government organization and they'd still not believe.
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Old 06-29-19, 03:20 PM
  #34  
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Here is my local MUP.
It runs 14.8 miles from Westminster to Boulder CO.
It was completed in 2016, and is mostly 12' wide, except for a few short places where it linked in pre-existing 8' wide paths.
The rider in the video is averaging ~20mph, but the video is running at 4X so it looks like 80mph.
Someone tell me where we need 15mph speed limits on it.

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Old 06-29-19, 04:01 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Here is my local MUP.
It runs 14.8 miles from Westminster to Boulder CO.
It was completed in 2016, and is mostly 12' wide, except for a few short places where it linked in pre-existing 8' wide paths.
The rider in the video is averaging ~20mph, but the video is running at 4X so it looks like 80mph.
Someone tell me where we need 15mph speed limits on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijaBmPYD-QE
I've just looked this one up: the US 36 "Bikeway", right? This is not a MUP; this is a "bike highway". Of course one wouldn't want speed limits on it, let alone 15 mph speed limits. https://rootsrated.com/boulder-co/cy...ikeway-cycling

This thread, in its origins, references an actual MUP that is -- as is the case with most MUP systems -- part of a regional park system. Our extensive, and excellent, MUP system is just such a one.

Ours has a posted limit of 20kmh. That is as it should be. Use of motorized vehicles of any kind is prohibited, the only exceptions being certain types of very low speed mobility aids used out of medical necessity. That is as it should be. That prohibition, by the way, extends to the many varieties of so-called "e-bikes" now proliferating, which may be ridden on our MUP if, and only if, the motor/assist is disengaged. That is as it should be.

Do people violate these -- entirely rational -- restrictions? Of course they do. Should they be cited and fined if caught so doing? Absolutely, and indeed they have been and are being cited and fined from time to time. Enforcement is spotty, given limited police resources, but occasional forays by law enforcement do have an effect.
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Old 06-29-19, 04:01 PM
  #36  
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Multi-use implies compromise. I can see the push towards compromise for group A, but where is the compromise for group B? If only one side is making all the adjustment then that's "special use" -- as in seating for the handicapped and elderly -- not multi-use. As for kids, playgrounds are their special use environment, where adult use is prohibited.
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Here is my local MUP.
It runs 14.8 miles from Westminster to Boulder CO.
It was completed in 2016, and is mostly 12' wide, except for a few short places where it linked in pre-existing 8' wide paths.
The rider in the video is averaging ~20mph, but the video is running at 4X so it looks like 80mph.
Someone tell me where we need 15mph speed limits on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijaBmPYD-QE
I wouldn't necessarily call for a speed limit, but I did notice a few blind curves and those tunnels that could use a "SLOW" sign. There are a couple blind curves with CAUTION signs on my favorite MUP (not that I need it) but I go as far as unclipping once I noticed other barreling around it.

BTW, did you notice (@1:05) the parent with their kid? They're to the right on one lane but blocking the path to the other and spread apart. If I stop for a respite I simply step off the path leaving zero guessing or interference for others using the path.

Also, did anybody also notice that both parents are wearing their helmet and their kid is not? Not only completely ignoring their child's personal safety, but breaking the law as well.
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Old 06-29-19, 05:34 PM
  #37  
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Years ago a motorcycle officer ticked me for going FOUR miles an hour over the limit while riding my crotch rocket motorcycle. I took the day off and went to court. When the judge asked if there was anyone who was NOT guilty "or" guilty with an explanation (with this option you can get court appointed school in lieu if points being assigned) I raised my hand and I asked the judge to look at my recorded speed...

He took one look, got pe'oed and said case dismissed muttering "why is it that officers nit pick drivers"

The courtroom heard that and many laughed :-)
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Old 06-29-19, 05:39 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
]...amid the increasing rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians.
Do tell, what rising rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians? Where, measured how, and since when?

Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Do you watch the news? If not you can start with, BF and the title post. It tends to be a good source of cycling safety news and information. Just do your homework.
Your homeworked sources for alleged factoids about an "increasing rate of cycling incidents involving pedestrians" and credibility of homeworked conclusions drawn from such nonspecific and ill-defined "good sources of cycling safety news and information" are as I suspected.
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Old 06-29-19, 06:29 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Do you watch the news? If not you can start with, BF and the title post. It tends to be a good source of cycling safety news and information. Just do your homework.



Says who? The ones I ride on have no posted speed limit, and what's logical would be to take the kids to the playground where they have exclusive use of the environment. Someone invented this area a long time ago because they figured out that kids and adult's recreation don't mix very well.

Any decent parent would know better than to put their kids in harms way. Don't expect the world to babysit your children. That's your responsibility.
You want to tell us the imaginary age limit for your imaginary rule? If you aren't skilled enough to avoid hitting a kid, good luck in court. I'm sure the judge and/or jury will just adore that babysitting argument.

You're fond of telling people what the law is, show us anywhere there is an age limit on a mup.
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Old 06-29-19, 09:31 PM
  #40  
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Here's a different article: https://www.denverpost.com/2019/06/2...ek-bike-crash/

I strongly suspect that the 'enforcement' they're talking about is going to focus on high-density MUPs, such as the Cherry Creek path through south and central Denver, as well as actual parks - Washington Park (in the video from the first link), and perhaps Cheesman and City Park. This portion of the Cherry Creek path and Wash Park were already a hot mess when I left Denver in 2010, and I can only imagine that they've gotten worse.
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Old 06-29-19, 09:57 PM
  #41  
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I still find it hard to imagine the uproar about bicycles traveling over 15 mph, when just last night an intoxicated local motorist left a party, and in a distance of a few blocks accelerates to 90 mph plus in their siege weapon truck, missed a turn in the road, travels through a parking lot, takes out a major business sign, then a fence, through a residential bedroom wall, and killing one sleeping resident and injuring another.
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Old 06-29-19, 10:31 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I don't think speed limits will work because they're basically unenforceable without an unsustainable level of patrolling. Speed limits obviously don't work for cars for this reason --I virtually never see anyone driving the urban streets within speed limits on major thoroughfares and rarely do I ever see anyone pulled over for it.
I see people pulled over for speeding regularly and I think in general speed limits are as effective as they need to be. People don't drive within the posted speed limit, but the majority drive within an effective limit that's generally from 7 to 9 mph over depending on the jurisdiction. If I drive faster than the speed that is allowed on any of the roads I regularly drive, I will get a ticket. Perhaps not today or tomorrow, but within a month. That works as it generally keeps me in compliance.

I think that level of enforcement is effective enough on most roads and I suspect it would work on bike paths as well. Whether or not it's reasonable or necessary to do that depends on local conditions.
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Old 06-29-19, 10:44 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I see people pulled over for speeding regularly and I think in general speed limits are as effective as they need to be. People don't drive within the posted speed limit, but the majority drive within an effective limit that's generally from 7 to 9 mph over depending on the jurisdiction. If I drive faster than the speed that is allowed on any of the roads I regularly drive, I will get a ticket. Perhaps not today or tomorrow, but within a month. That works as it generally keeps me in compliance.

I think that level of enforcement is effective enough on most roads and I suspect it would work on bike paths as well. Whether or not it's reasonable or necessary to do that depends on local conditions.
My former employer's daughter was pulled over for going too slow by our state's highway patrol, while she was traveling 65mph in the next to the fastest lane of a 6 lane 65 mph freeway, and the officer asked her what the problem was in her driving 65mph. To be fair, the freeway was posted for slower traffic to keep right.
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Old 06-29-19, 10:58 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
When motorcycles collide head-on at 60mph you hear everyone saying ''Yeah, we should reduce the speed limit to 16mph.'' Oh wait, no, that doesn't happen does it.
Motorcycles don't ride 60mph on the MUP. Maybe they would reduce the highway speed limits if motorcycles were frequently colliding head-on. Oh wait, no, that doesn't happen does it.
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Old 06-30-19, 02:03 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
I still find it hard to imagine the uproar about bicycles traveling over 15 mph, when just last night an intoxicated local motorist left a party, and in a distance of a few blocks accelerates to 90 mph plus in their siege weapon truck, missed a turn in the road, travels through a parking lot, takes out a major business sign, then a fence, through a residential bedroom wall, and killing one sleeping resident and injuring another.
Outside of the frequent MUP debate among the general cycling community, I'd never heard of any mention of such a thing before the proliferation of e-bikes.

Its this lumping of all cyclist into one pot regulation that's what I'm afraid of most. For generations cyclist of all types have been doing our thing with barely any mention of wrong of need for more law enforcement to get involved.

Now, within the last few years there's regular news stories of cycling mishaps, politicians getting involved, ticking with exorbitant fines, and suggestions of licensing cyclist. Doesn't law enforcement have enough real crime to deal with? We need to stop this insanity. If they wish to regular powered cycles fine. But leave traditions cyclist out of it.

In all my years of cycling I've never runover anyone despite having people walk right into my path. I've always been able to stop without accident or injury. We cyclist haven't done any more now than what's always been done.

We don't need any government intrusion or regulation beyond what already is in place. We are no more a threat to the community than runners/joggers or anyone else. And unlike skateboarders, I don't ride my bike on the sidewalk. LEAVE US ALONE.
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Old 06-30-19, 03:50 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I see people pulled over for speeding regularly and I think in general speed limits are as effective as they need to be. People don't drive within the posted speed limit, but the majority drive within an effective limit that's generally from 7 to 9 mph over depending on the jurisdiction. If I drive faster than the speed that is allowed on any of the roads I regularly drive, I will get a ticket. Perhaps not today or tomorrow, but within a month. That works as it generally keeps me in compliance.

I think that level of enforcement is effective enough on most roads and I suspect it would work on bike paths as well. Whether or not it's reasonable or necessary to do that depends on local conditions.
I don't know what "effective as they need to be" means, but speeding is the rule, not the exception where I live. There's a city speed limit of 30 mph. You will get honked at if you follow it on a non-busy street.

Pull-overs are relatively rare, and quite random.
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Old 06-30-19, 04:38 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
For generations cyclist of all types have been doing our thing with barely any mention of wrong of need for more law enforcement to get involved.

Now, within the last few years there's regular news stories of cycling mishaps, politicians getting involved, ticking with exorbitant fines, and suggestions of licensing cyclist. Doesn't law enforcement have enough real crime to deal with? We need to stop this insanity. If they wish to regular powered cycles fine. But leave traditions cyclist out of it.
These concerns tend to be in response to two things - widely experienced near misses, and actual bike/pedestrian (or occasionally bike/bike) collisions. Note there's a horrific one reported in this thread and speculated as contributing to the speed limit decision.

As for what might have changed, two things come to mind:

- Ride tracking apps and leaderboards - ceasing to add energy at the cranks for few seconds as is natural and wise when it's uncertain what is unfolding ahead now "costs"

- Recapture of public spaces for human use. Lots of cities walled off from their rivers, etc for generations have recently turned those (and similar anti-human industrial facilities like old rail lines) into linear parks with the specific intention of getting a full segment of society out there to enjoy them in a full segment of ways. Or such resources that already existed have been cleaned up, lit, and reclaimed from crime, in part by trying to keep them well populated with users.

More people = more potential for conflict.

We don't need any government intrusion or regulation beyond what already is in place. We are no more a threat to the community than runners/joggers or anyone else. And unlike skateboarders, I don't ride my bike on the sidewalk. LEAVE US ALONE.
Your personal judgement, skill, and luck that those have been sufficient seem commendable. But it's not just about you, it's about everyone. Your individual habits matter little to a pedestrian actually hit and knocked over by someone else, or to one now afraid to go to use a shared path because of the number of high speed near misses they have when they do.

What in your opinion should be done about the people who are not you? Simply ignoring that they exist is no longer viable in a public policy sense - the calls to do something regularly reach the point where something happens, for example in our local case turning a key through route that is also a popular walking spot into a dismount zone.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-30-19 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 06-30-19, 05:46 AM
  #48  
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One issue with our society is that the police, courts, etc all like firm numbers.... when the real issue is safety.

Stop the fast cyclists, no matter the path or the conditions.

My fastest off-street bike path Strava segment (0.4 miles) ... 27.2 MPH, avg, with a top speed just over 30 MPH. But, that is a well chosen segment, and I'll abort if conditions don't support a fast ride.

I generally don't like sprinting on the bike paths, and ignore most of the Strava segments, especially in denser pedestrian areas, or with curves or poor visibility. The segment above is one if the widest parts of the bike path, and is about 25 feet wide, and straight.

My slowest bike path ride...



I couldn't get through. I had to turn around and find a different route.
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Old 06-30-19, 06:28 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Outside of the frequent MUP debate among the general cycling community, I'd never heard of any mention of such a thing before the proliferation of e-bikes.

Its this lumping of all cyclist into one pot regulation that's what I'm afraid of most. For generations cyclist of all types have been doing our thing with barely any mention of wrong of need for more law enforcement to get involved.

Now, within the last few years there's regular news stories of cycling mishaps, politicians getting involved, ticking with exorbitant fines, and suggestions of licensing cyclist. Doesn't law enforcement have enough real crime to deal with? We need to stop this insanity. If they wish to regular powered cycles fine. But leave traditions cyclist out of it.

In all my years of cycling I've never runover anyone despite having people walk right into my path. I've always been able to stop without accident or injury. We cyclist haven't done any more now than what's always been done.

We don't need any government intrusion or regulation beyond what already is in place. We are no more a threat to the community than runners/joggers or anyone else. And unlike skateboarders, I don't ride my bike on the sidewalk. LEAVE US ALONE.
The alleged problem with frequent MUP debate among the general cycling community could be greatly reduced by:
  • Not drawing exaggerated conclusions from the various emotional screeds on this subject posted on A&S;
  • Resist bogus extrapolation of the dreck obtained by trolling the Internet looking for any hint of "news stories" of cycling mishaps, politicians getting involved, ticketing with exorbitant fines, and suggestions of licensing cyclist.
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Old 06-30-19, 08:33 AM
  #50  
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I've never been to the MUPs of Colorado; however, if they're anything like the MUPs of D.C., then this is a necessary evil. I find it hard to believe that rangers are targeting cyclists going 16-mph.

Not too long ago, I would have said that this action would only apply to the serious cyclists, because most recreational cyclists that ride on MUPs have a hard time staying at 15-MPH consistently, at least in my experience/observation. However, now with electric bikes becoming so much more popular, I imagine this problem of speeding on MUPs is only getting worse.

BTW, I'm also a lance-wannabe and if I'm going slower than 15-MPH, than something is wrong with me; and that's why I stick to the roads. I don't even speed on roadways with 15-MPH speeds, much of the time I go much slower, because they're usually filled with kids and other hazards. I hate the idea of speedlimits on MUPs, but like I said above, it's a necessary evil.
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