JamieTown

yes, but don't you think the journalists and publishers who write that content should get paid? without the ad revenue, they go out of business.

Kapusta

Almost nobody repairs a cracked steel frame these days. And in reality, almost nobody ever did in the old days, either.

Litespud

My main (almost my only) ride is a 20-year-old Litespeed - barring trauma, the remote inability to find suitable components or the even more remote likelihood of a rich uncle gifting me a Colnago Master, I don't plan on ever replacing it.

Oneder

Aside from some really crap cheap frames how often is it going to even come up with steel frames?

Kapusta

Almost never.

I did not follow the whole discussion on this, but my take is that repair-ability of a frame is in reality of very low importance to me (and I think to most people).

Oneder

I meant how often will it come up on steel? I mean I've seen it but even then it's been no big deal. Carbon is not going to last forever. Aluminum won't last as long as steel most likely but depends on the specific alloys and would require a lot of abuse if it's a halfway decent frame.

Kapusta

It rarely comes up with steel.... or CF, or Al.

Steel, CF and AL will all last long enough to essentially be "forever". 99% of frames of any type will be retired for other reasons before they fail from old age.

Oneder

Bending the frame is not unlikely at all, and with steel you can do it intentionally as well so for instance you could upgrade from 7 speed to 9 speed, or 26" to 650b. If you tried that with carbon, al or tit you will break the frame. I don't see how you think carbon will last forever, I see broken carbon all the time and it hasn't even been big that long. Steel could last forever if it's good quality and has reasonable care and useage. Al will last a long time but it's not going to be around in 50 years, probably not even half that. And not long at all if you use it for mountain biking.

Ironfish653

FTFY: Anything could last forever if it's good quality and has reasonable care and usage.

I've got a 1976 Bridgestone Superlight (aluminum frame) that would beg to differ. It was my Rando/Century bike until 2016, now townie / pathbike. Still 90% original.
Also a 1997 Cannondale F-1000 that's still seeing regular duty from commuting, to fire-road and single-tracking.

Ironically, the Bridgestone MB-0 'Zip,' arguably the pinnacle of steel-framed MTBs, was famous (infamous) for it's frame failures.

Oneder

Not really, tons of damaged carbon and al frames that were just used as road bikes.


It aint 50 years old yet, and doubt it was used regularly all that time. Your carbon could also be around in 100 years, sure, if it's used once a month to go down to the store. Well made steel will last 100 years with constant use so long as it's not abused or crashed and even then it should last a lot longer than anything else. Your aluminum welds are not the same as steel welds, which are going to join steel tubes as well or better than the steel tube's own integrity. You flex your joins on an al bike much and it's done very quickly.

If steel frames fail regularly then it's not high quality, at least not as far as endurance goes. Of course if you cut enough corners for weight or for extreme geometry you are going to get easier failures.

biker222

I had two steel frames crack on down tube.
One was a Bridgestone MB-1 Mtn bike and the other was a LeMond Team Pro Italian Columbus tubing,
The Lemond frame I had local frame builder replace tube and repaint frame.
I still like steel even though I mainly ride a Ti bike.

Ironfish653

I've got a couple of steel frames you can throw on that pile, too. Of course, they didn't fail 'Just Riding Along' like your bikes, apparently. One was a buckled TT / DT from a crash, and the other was a cracked chainstay (4130 MTB)


You've answered your own question here. People want lighter bikes. To make something lighter, you usually have to compromise on ultimate strength, unless you don't mind getting really expensive. You can have light, strong, or cheap. Pick two.

It's as much as the design as it is the material. Heavy bikes are no fun to ride, especially in a sporting / recreational sense. Steel is heavy, roughly 3x heavier than Aluminum per unit volume. The type of high-grade thin-wall tubes you need to make a light weight bicycle are expensive to make. You can use a less-expensive to make aluminum tube with 2x the wall thickness, that has 30% less weight (roughly) The rise of automated TIG welding in the 80's made it much less expensive to make lighter-weigh aluminum bicycles than light weight steel bikes.
Same thing with Carbon's developments in the 00's. Keep in mind, you wouldn't build a 20-lb CF road bike, you build a 15-lb bike, which is pretty tough to do with steel.
Now, if we're talking about light-weight road bikes, here, they're not BMX bikes or Dutch city bikes, so their design limits are going to be lower; Crash, and you'll break something. The difference is in the failure modes: A steel tube will bend or buckle, AL will crack, CF breaks. They can all be repaired (technically) but the cost is usually not woth the money, particularly with the skill techniques required to repair carbon and AL. Steel is a much easier material to work / rework and those skills and people with those skills are much more readily accessable.

Conversely, all those 50+ year old bikes you hold up as paragons of steel's eternal nature aren't light-weight racers, are they? Usually, they're touring bikes, 3-speeds and Dutch bikes, Bikes that were built for utility and durability, rather than light weight and performance. Typically the light weight, high performance bikes were expensive, and treated as such, when they weren't being raced, that is.
Frankly, there's very, very few bikes that were made of aluminum 50 years, ago, and no CF bikes, so even if you took all the bikes that were made between 1950 and 1970, all but a handful would be steel.

cyccommute 

A 1976 bike is close enough that we can round up to 50 years. There’s not going to be much difference between 44 years and 50 years.

As for 100 year old steel frames, how many 1920s bikes do you see out on the road? I can’t say that I’ve seen a 1920s bike at my local co-op and nearly every bike ever made eventually turns up there. There’s a pretty good reason for that as metallurgy has also change a lot since the 1920s. Steel from 100 years ago isn’t going to stand up to the same rigors as steel...or aluminum...made in the late 20th century is.

Additionally, steel frames from 100 years ago or even 40 years ago wasn’t really “welded”. It was brazed which is a far milder treatment of the metal.

One of my examples...from 2 years ago, thanks JamieTown for zombizing this thread...was a “good bike”. It wasn’t “cheap” at $500 1983 dollars. That was about the highest end bike the Miyata was making and the $1300 2020 equivalent dollars hardly does it justice. The 1983 Miyata Ridge Runner would be closer in equivalency today to a high end carbon fiber bike in the $6000 range. It still broke...several times.

Kapusta

Yes, steel frames get bent... what is the point here? Most people will toss a bent frame or fork.

As far as bending the rear stays for a a larger wheel.... not to wear out the "almost nobody" record but... almost nobody ends up bending their seat stays for a wider rear wheel. It happens, and we talk about it on this site because we are the exceptions to the rule, but I don't know anyone who ever needed to actually do it outside of people looking to fix up a vintage bike for the aesthetic value. AS far as 26" to 650b... that makes no sense, how is bending the rear stays going to help with that? The wheel diameter will fit the frame or it won't. Frame material hse nothing to do with wheel size conversion.

I don't see why you think steel will last longer. What data are you actually basing this on? They both have (for all intents and purposes) infinite fatigue cycles in them.

Sorry, is THAT you "data"? Search the internet and you will find a bunch of everything. Do a google image search for rusty steel frames, and you will see plenty. Of course you are going to see more broken CF frames out there, they are the majority of lightweight road frames. If one does crack it was due to bad design, which was a problem years ago, but not so much in the past 10-20 years.

So will a quality CF or AL frame if you take care of it.

Kind of a moot point, as almost nobody keeps a frame for 50 years of steady riding. I'll bet not even 1 in 1,000 steel bike made in 50 years ago has been use regularly for the past 50 years. The rest either:
a) went to a landfill
b) got recycled
c) spent 45 out of the past 50 years unused in someone's garage.

As far as "half that" goes... My commuter is build on a 26 year old Al frame and fork. It actually outlasted the similarly old steel mtb frame I had due to corrosion and rust from riding in elements that Al has done fine with. So.... which lasts longer? But who cares? We are talking 25 year old frames. If one fails, buy another for $40 if you really want a frame with long out-of-date standards.

The aluminum MTB frames that fail are mostly due to bad FS designs (again, something much less common today than 20 years ago). The reason you don't see steel FS bikes failing is because 99% of the FS bikes ever produced are either Al or CF.

Look, I am not bashing on steel, here. I actually prefer it for my non-suspended bikes. I just think that it is silly to give much weight to the differences in longevity or ease of repair. It is all going to be irrelevant for 99% of bikes out there, and 99% of the people buying them. These are fine points to debate in theory, but in reality I just don't think it matters... which has been my point all along.

Mulberry20

Steel bikes are by far the prettiest and most elegant. You don’t need massive ugly welds or hideously large and still weak carbon bottom brackets.

I don’t understand the obsession with the same material everywhere.

The best combination is the newer steel tubing with a carbon fork and perhaps carbon seat stays.

Kapusta

Oh, crap. I’m arguing in a 2 year old zombie thread.

Sorry..