M1T

Bought this 1951 Carlton Massed Start for cheap, but it has some neat decals (transfers) and a Hans Orht of Beverly Hills shop sticker / decal that was covered and uncovered over time. My dilemma is to just de-rust, clean, and wax, or strip and re-spray. The forks are chromed and look nice as is (cleaned, waxed) so I thought of leaving those as is, and re-doing the frame. Might be a testament

Unusual Carlton transfer

Hans was the 1915 US (or world?) amateur road champion. Had a store front in Beverly Hills and San Fran.

Paint is just holding on...

Nice lug work

Translucent gold paint, but very, very chipped and scraped up... with lots of minor surface rust
to the bike, but it could rid the many, many dings, scrapes, and rust from this once nice bike...thoughts?

M1T

Despite having worked in the the tech industry forever, not sure how this posting stuff works on this forum! My original words were truncated, then photo's showed up. But at least after 2-3 days of trying to post to get to 10 posts, I've reached this point! What I'm trying to convey /ask, is, should I strip it and re-spray, or clean and wax it and be done? The chromed forks cleaned up nicely and they will remain as-is regardless.

ThermionicScott 

My vote is for de-rust/clean/wax. I can't see a repaint doing it justice.

xiaoman1 

^^^same here....
Ben

norcalmike

Another vote for buff and roll

Lascauxcaveman 

There's too much cool stuff going on there to just erase it all. Clean it up and preserve what's left. If you haven't already, do some research on what us C&V nerds refer to as 'patina.' Also (if you haven't already) look up threads on the efficacy of an oxalic acid bath. It sounds like a hassle at first, but it's easy and cheap and effective.

Kabuki12

I like the look of an original bike that has been cleaned and polished versus respray. The patina in the paint and scars give the bike character. I have a 1972 ItalVega that I spent about a year off and on and I opted not to repaint it . It was much worse than your bike from what I can see. Be patient and take your time and then after you are done ride it for a while and I’ll bet you will opt to leave it. It is your bike and up to you , but an old bike with age looks better on the road than a repainted bike imho , Joe. Joesvintageroadbikes.wordpress

Wileyone 

Patina is one thing, rust is another, For me this nice Carlton would get a full makeover.
After all it's just paint.

"tis the bones what's matters".

BigChief 

To me, being a cycling/historian, the original finish on this bike is very important. On this bike, you have all the original finish features intact. It would be a shame to erase this history without correctly replacing it. Sometimes, restoration is preservation. Since all the historical evidence is there to work from, it would be possible to do a historically correct restoration which I think would be fine here. On the other hand, to blast and powder coat this frame sort of the original color would be a botch job this bike doesn't deserve.

FBOATSB

M1T , if I may participate in your pol, I would vote to de-rust and preserve. Build it up with period correct, equally in appearance (as in cheap) rider quality bits. And if were mine it be a fair weather rider. Thanks for posting.

Sandstrom

Agree with most of the sentiment here. At the very least, start seeing how well a careful cleanup goes, you may be surprised and happy with the result and decide the right thing is to leave it all original. If you feel it isn't salvageable enough for you to be happy with it as a rider, you might decide to repaint then.

Personally I would want to leave it original, but you need to be happy with it, it's your bike and unless a display piece, I could understand some wanting to restore it to fresh condition.

Good luck with it whatever you decide, such a cool bike!

jethin

Neat. I was gonna say repaint but I’ll go with the informed consensus. Though a lot of work I think it’d be worth it to try cleaning/preserving it before painting/other interventions.

Hudson308 

I'm usually the guy who strips & refinishes bikes in this condition, but this is one of those rare ones that tells a story that would be a shame to lose.
I would disassemble, soak in Oxalic acid and clean/wax. Here's an example from DQRider of how cool that can be.

markk900

Clean and buff for now; once that is done ride the bike for a while and if it really bothers you that there’s a lot of appearance issues you can always do the full on restore later. There are some very good decal makers around that should you go the full restore route you can get awesome repros made. Mind you it won’t be cheap to do that bike right.

Anyway this is what happened with one of mine - cleanup and rode it for a few years but I really didn’t like the “fresh from the dumpster” look so I eventually did repaint and am very happy I did.

repechage

This was a bike sold by Hans himself.
A full makeover can be done, will cost a LOT to do it right. $1,200 pretty easy, chrome, graphics, detail paint. H Lloyds may have the transfers, and this should have transfers, not stickers. Gus Salmon could probably make the Hans Ohrt decal. (at this time the shop transfer was just that, a duplex transfer, varnish fix)
Anything less than a full bore restoration will just diminish the value. And a correct restoration will not be recouped later.
I think clean it up well.
Also, lets say you got free money and did get restored correctly, if the components don't look equal, it will look weird.
Go through the parts, use the correct rear derailleur, 50/50 this had tubulars or 27" clinchers. May have had tubulars as delivered, but not kept.
Rims would be Dunlop if clinchers, more latitude on tubular rims.

jeirvine 

Cool bike. The hand-done box lining is not something you can just get a decal for.

randyjawa 

Before investing in aesthetics, I always build and test ride a bike! Doing so can save one a lot of frustration when into the restoration aspect of the project. This old Legnano has, all but, demanded a repaint ever since I got it. I have resisted the urge to destroy the original art and paint but I can and do still ride my old Legnano. Someday, I might opt for a repaint but someday is rarely listed in the week of days...


And, for what it is worth, with the passing of time and use, that old patina might begin to grow on you. And, you can paint the bike anytime that you want to be keep in mind that there are a lot of issues to consider, when painting a bicycle. Painted this one with a brush...


And this one with rattle can (not finished, needs are clear coat and rubbing out), chrome plated surfaces and all...

M1T

Thank you all for the thoughts and comments. After reading them all, I'll keep cleaning, and see where it takes the frame.

Part of the post was born from the frustration of hours of careful grime removal only to have the rust scream back at me, "Hey, I'm still here." In a way, I was looking for an easy out! But the carpenters rule, measure twice, cut once, more than applies here.

I'll post a photo in a few weeks after rust removal and waxing.

nlerner

It reminds me of a highly patina-ed 1948 Claud Butler that I once owned. Lots of original finish details were preserved under the corrosion, so I just cleaned and waxed:

ClaudButler11.jpg

ClaudButlerPrev5.jpg

BigChief 

I've been wanting an excuse to buy one of these for a long time.
Beugler pinstripe tool

ryansu

I will echo above start with a derust and buff and ride it see how you like it, you can always strip it later, if you start with the strip and repaint then you are out of options. Also if you start with it as is and ride it and decide its too big or too small for you then you haven't made a big investment only to find the bike doesn't work for you. (ask me how I know )

rhm

I would look at this as a process, not an event.

So the first step is to preserve everything that can be preserved, arrest any active rust, and so on.

Second step is to record everything. Photograph every decal, measure its location, and so on.

Third step is to get the bike into the condition you want it in, for the purpose you want it for. Make it into a finished project. During this step I would probably try touch up paint and that kind of thing. See if it helps.

Fourth step is to use it for whatever purpose you have the bike for, and to evaluate it on standards specific to that purpose. If it's a commuter, is it any good as a commuter? Can it be better? If it's a wall hanger, does its present condition draw the eye, or is it repellent?

I would start to consider a full repaint etc only after going through all those steps. In my experience a lot of people jump to the full restoration before going through those steps, and often regret it for one reason or another. But once I've gone though all those steps, I usually have lost my appetite for a full restoration.

Sandstrom

That is a really cool bike, true definition of a survivor!

svoperokram

This 67 Legnano condorino was severely sun faded....

Salamandrine 

This is a tough one. I agree with @rhm that the first step should be to document everything. Take many photographs and measurements of all transfers, box lining, etc. I would do that before doing any evaporust baths are cleaning.

In addition to taking lots of photographs, I suggest taking physical tracings of all the transfers. These can be scanned and used as a template layer. That will greatly assist in creating new transfers from photographs.

If the decision is made to restore, it should be done correctly, as @repechage says. This will be very expensive. There are people that can do it, including box lining. If the OP is not willing to go to this length, it should be left alone.

I'm normally not really onboard with the "Antiques Roadshow" trip of never ever refinish anything -- essentially because steel, unlike mahogany desks, rusts. However, in this case I'd be inclined to clean, wax and leave it be. It has a lot of unique history. Enjoy the wabi sabi. Keep it dry and ride it only on ceremonial occasions.

If the intent is to ride it as a daily rider in all conditions, go for the full restore, spend lots of money, and do it right.