Spellscape

Hi all
Should I remove fixed cup if I don't intend to change BB now, it's stuck and only reason for this is just to remove it and lubricate threads. It's not rusted in any way.

clubman 

Generally, no.

randyjawa 

Sometimes, the fixed cup can be darn near impossible to remove. When I encounter this problem, I clean it and inspect it very carefully. A ball point pen can be run around the bearing race. If you feel roughness, then the cup is shot. Look at the spindle. If it is pitted or worn badly, chances are the problem has migrated to the cup. Damage ball bearings also suggest possible damage to the cup.

I use a big bolt and some washers, coupled with a large adjustable wrench (I use a 15" one). The bib bolt and washers help to prevent the wrench from slipping off. Also, make sure that you know which direction to turn the fixed cup. Some are right handed an some left. Anyway, a picture is worth a thousand words. Hope this is a help...

merziac

Yes, always, period.
For the exact reasons you list.

Randy's method is good, I have a different foolproof setup as well, PM if interested.

jdawginsc 

I use a similar to Merziac’s method but if super seized, repeated shots of WD 40, PB Blaster or Kroil are a necessary friend.

edit: if it is a plastic/resin BB cup, they can be a bear. Alloy cup—no grease—steel seizes can be horrific.

Is it a standard cup and spindle BB?

oneclick 

The method is good, but the spanner isn't - the two faces are tapered. The face against the cup can be tilted, especially if the washer is made to sit flat against the outer face; and it it's tilted, it can round the corners of the flats and/or slip off.

Best to use a proper BB cup spanner, they are not expensive - and keep the washer&bolt, you'll still need them.

merziac

Maybe so but I can tell you that Randy has had hands on more bikes than most of us here put together and while I don't subscribe to it, he has mastered it quite well regardless.

Exhibit "A"

merziac

I've never had to use heat or chemicals, a way bigger lever, yes, never needed anything else.

gkamieneski

Sometimes it is possible to hold the flats in a bench vise and turn the frame for leverage, if done carefully.

Soody

I got one off the other day using the sheldon method
50mm m16 bolt & nut
m16 washers.

You put the bolt through the cup hole, with a couple washers on it and do up the nut inside the shell. With enough washers in there to space the nut behind the cup. Then just keep tightening the bolt. It grips on the cup more and more as it tightens, and eventually unscrews it.
Genius little tool. No worrying about camming anything out or keeping any wrench on tiny thin flats.

illustrates it quite well.

xiaoman1 

Go to post 4093....I learned this trick from cyccommute a fellow member on the forums.
And wonder why I never thought of it before, it makes removing the fixed cup a breeze....
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ately-164.html
Best, Ben

3alarmer 

.
...first, I am not here to cause a kerfuffle. Having said that, I bought myself one of those Hozan fixed cup tools, which work well. I paint a lot of my project frames, so it was worth the expense in my case.


Second, I disagree with the premise that fixed cups need to be removed, simply because you are servicing the BB.
Were that the case in standard shop practice, the cost for removing them would be factored in, and the rate would be higher.

Mostly, shops these days work on sealed units anyway. Once it goes in, it only comes out for replacement.

Here are the reasons I feel this way:

a. If the fixed cup is RH threaded (French, Italian), it has been intentionally torqued into place by a gorilla, in order to keep the drive side cup from backing out under use. Chances are excellent that unless you have a really good setup for fixed cups (like the Hozan tool), you won't get it back in place with the same torque. Thus it becomes a possible future problem.

b. If the purpose of this exercise is to remove and re-grease the threads, thus avoiding future problems, I would submit that the fixed cup is either pretty well stuck in there right now anyway, (in which case I don't envision it going from very difficult to remove to impossible to remove, before you actually need to remove it to replace it with something else.) Or it is not in there real tight. In which case you just did an extra operation for what seems to be no good reason (to me).

c. Even with that Hozan tool, sometimes I need to pull the bike off the stand, install the Hozan tool, insert the tool end in the jaws off a solid bench vise, and twist the frame off the cup and tool. Some of these fixed cups are not easily removed.

Anyway, everyone here has his own idea of proper....I would not at all fault someone for inspecting the condition of the fixed cup in place, (after through cleaning in place,) and then re-greasing and reassembling. You can use new bearings if you want, even thought the old ones are probably still good. Ball bearings are still pretty cheap and widely available.

Kabuki12

I guess I have been fortunate. All the bottom brackets I have serviced have had cups that are in good shape. If the fixed cup refuses to budge I lay the frame down on the fixed cup and shine a bright light from the top looking at the bearing surface. Then I use my finger nail or a piece of plastic like a pen cap to gently feel the surface for any imperfections. In my experience the spindle seems to be the most vulnerable and that’s where I have had to use a bit of fine Emory cloth to smooth out, but only once or twice. Most of the time the assembly just needs cleaning and fresh grease. It makes it much easier when the fixed cup comes out but really not necessary. I have only had one or two I couldn’t get loose.

'02 nrs

not a bad idea but if reusing the fixed cup what are the chances the split washers marring the bearing surface?

Soody

didn't happen for me "You might worry about damaging the cup, but this is not likely to happen. The washer doesn't usually come into contact with the bearing surface. Even if it did, bearing cups are made of extraordinarily hard, heat-treated steel, much stronger than that used to make washers."
-Sheldon

cyccommute 

Here’s a better way to remove the fixed cup. In fact I’ve started to using this technique to remove the fixed cup first rather than the adjustable cup like I was originally taught so many years ago. It works far better than the bolt and nut method which can crush the cup.

merziac

If you don't want to, don't.

If you have a "better" way that works "better" for you, do it that way.

If you need or want a better tool to do it, get that tool and use it.

If you need help, come on here and see if you can get some.

If you ask for help, I'm going to tell you I do it everytime, my way, it never fails, hurts or damages any parts, frames, tools or flesh, ever, again, period.

Spellscape

Ok I have Motobecane from 79 - and its from France (even bought there) it's not high end bike but i like it
So 99% that this is french threaded - checked modern BB it does not come full (I just tested that way very lightly)
Pedals are 100% old french threaded
For now nut and bolt + spanner on external side didi't do any movement
Cups are fine - spindle has some light wear - my hypothesis because of long standing in some old barn, old grease was like butter but there was a lot of it.
Now I'm not really sure if I need to remove it. Maybe just replace bearings and spindle?

Spellscape

Here are some pictures

oneclick 

And if you have the right size washers and bolt you can use Randy's method with the vice.

oneclick 

The OP has a cottered spindle; while I agree with you about doing that side first it's not an option here.

JohnDThompson 

VAR (30) and Campagnolo (793/A) offer similar tools. The VAR offers several jaws to fit a number of different fixed cup designs. The Campagnolo only fits Campagnolo and its copies (36mm flats), of which there are many. Neither is cheap, but they work. Every time. Without damaging either the cup or the frame.

xiaoman1 

I still like this method...but on cottered cranks

cyccommute 

To my credit, Spellscape posted that his crank is a cottered crank after my post.

That said, the cottered crank might have an advantage...the only on cottered cranks have...over a three piece crank. The bottom bracket tool could be held in place with a stack of washers using the cottered arm to hold the stack and tool in place. The cotter pin could be placed loosely in the arm to hold every in place.

In fact, that might be an improvement over my method. Instead of using an old cup to hold it the tool and washers in place, a stack of fender washers would be all that would be needed. Put the tool on, put the washers on, and then put on the crank arm. The non-driveside arm could be used. Lightly bolt it in place and everything is held in place without any extra parts other than the fender washers.

I might even try making the spacer from the upper threaded part of a kickstand.

francophile 

And they're expensive as hell! I've been hunting for a VAR unit with all three jaw/mâchoires/mandrel/etc for years now under $50-60 in usable shape.. I typically see them selling north of $100 without any extras and sometimes missing the handle bar(s).

I have a VAR 30 handle (male side) in the shop I've had for years, but never managed to find the other end. Not sure if the jaws for the modern version of the VAR tool are compatible with the old unit - they still make it today under a much longer number, BP-03000 @ https://www.vartools.com/en/bottom-b...er-var-p11.php

PS - to the main point of the thread: They call it a "fixed" cup for a reason. Unless I'm painting the frame or swapping hte BB, I leave it fixed in place, where it can be maintained just fine. Gotta go with 3alarmer on this one.