Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

To the anti-helmet proponents on the forum...

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

To the anti-helmet proponents on the forum...

Old 06-28-10, 10:09 PM
  #601  
Northwestrider
Senior Member
 
Northwestrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 2,470

Bikes: Surly Long Haul Trucker, Gary Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo, Dahon Mu P 24 , Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Rodriguez Tandem, Wheeler MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
Manifestly a lie.

Put the helmet on your head. Close your mouth. Ride your bike. Thank you.
Well, that is exactly what I already do RazrSkutr, except on occasion I prefer to ride with no helmet, as I indicated in my previous post. I decided to share an experience I had while biking. Did that experience convince me to always wear a helmet? Nope, sorry. So I say again I could care less if you wear a helmet or not, it's your body, and mine is mine, we live with our choices.
Northwestrider is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 10:41 PM
  #602  
bmclaughlin807
Crankenstein
 
bmclaughlin807's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane
Posts: 4,037

Bikes: Novara Randonee (TankerBelle)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Utility and recreational cyclist here... I wear a helmet when required for certain group rides (brevets) ... One of the reasons I don't ride brevets anymore is the ridiculous rules (mandatory helmet, reflective vest during darkness).... I've got around 15,000 miles on my current bike (bought about 3 years ago) and ride in all seasons and weather.

The only other time I wear a helmet is in the mountains in the spring time... never know when you're going to find loose gravel on the road, or maybe even a stray patch of ice.

The biggest problems I have with the helmet crowd are the insults if you choose not to wear one (even if there's no name calling, it is strongly implied how dumb I must be for not wearing one) and the fact that ever since the great helmet crusaders came on the scene there is next to no other bicycle safety being taught... EVERYTHING has been replaced by 'Wear a helmet!'

Helmets do nothing to improve overall cyclist safety... and by concentrating on the 'Wear a helmet!!1!!' safety 'rule' to the exclusion of everything else the helmet crusaders have severely hurt cyclist safety. The only truly measurable result of mandatory helmet laws enacted have been to reduce the number of cyclists in the area affected... and reducing cyclist safety.

Helmets complicate my life as a utility cyclist... when I'm on and off my bike 4 or more times a day, I'd rather not be worrying about where I put my helmet... is it going to get vandalized, stolen, lost? Do I need to carry it all over the store with me? WHY?

The most important rule to my safety on a bicycle I learned in driver's education in high school: 90% of all "accidents" can be avoided by the attention and action of EITHER driver involved... most of the remaining 10% can be avoided by one or the other driver paying attention properly. Something like 1% are truly accidents and unavoidable.

I've looked at the numbers, I've looked at my riding habits and history and I've done the risk assessment.

IF I get killed riding a bike (There is a VERY slim possibility of it happening) it will be because I got hit at high speed by a vehicle... there isn't a helmet manufacturer out there that is going to guarantee that their helmet is going to help in that accident... in fact they all go out of their way to point out that their products are NOT designed or engineered to help in that type of accident, despite the fact that a VAST majority of cyclist deaths are caused by this very thing.

As long as there are bad drivers on the road, it's a risk... but you take the same risk walking, jogging, driving, etc.

The fact of the matter is that cycling is a very safe activity and the health benefits are incredible.... Cycling daily is MUCH more likely to add years to your life than to shorten it... and anything that reduces the number of cyclists and number of miles cycled reduces the country's overall health and life expectancy.
__________________
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
bmclaughlin807 is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 10:51 PM
  #603  
AlmostTrick
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
 
AlmostTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398

Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1549 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 504 Posts
Does crashing your bike while not wearing a helmet hurt ones head more than reading /posting in helmet threads? I'd guess not.
AlmostTrick is offline  
Old 06-28-10, 10:53 PM
  #604  
bmclaughlin807
Crankenstein
 
bmclaughlin807's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane
Posts: 4,037

Bikes: Novara Randonee (TankerBelle)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
Does crashing your bike while not wearing a helmet hurt ones head more than reading /posting in helmet threads? I'd guess not.
Reading these threads definitely hurts more! Yet, here I am... sucked into yet ANOTHER one. *sigh* Someday I'll learn.
__________________
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
bmclaughlin807 is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 12:51 AM
  #605  
jim_pridx
Full Member
 
jim_pridx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 262

Bikes: 2010 Bob Brown Cycles tandem, 2019 Co-Mo Carrera tandem, 1980 Richardson tandem, 2014 Cervelo R3, 2018 Specialized Roubaix, 1985 Bianchi Campione, 1983 Trek 720, 2020 Trek Fuel EX8, 2021 Salsa Mukluk

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times in 70 Posts
Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807

The biggest problems I have with the helmet crowd are the insults if you choose not to wear one (even if there's no name calling, it is strongly implied how dumb I must be for not wearing one) and the fact that ever since the great helmet crusaders came on the scene there is next to no other bicycle safety being taught... EVERYTHING has been replaced by 'Wear a helmet!'

Helmets do nothing to improve overall cyclist safety... and by concentrating on the 'Wear a helmet!!1!!' safety 'rule' to the exclusion of everything else the helmet crusaders have severely hurt cyclist safety. The only truly measurable result of mandatory helmet laws enacted have been to reduce the number of cyclists in the area affected... and reducing cyclist safety.



The most important rule to my safety on a bicycle I learned in driver's education in high school: 90% of all "accidents" can be avoided by the attention and action of EITHER driver involved... most of the remaining 10% can be avoided by one or the other driver paying attention properly. Something like 1% are truly accidents and unavoidable.

I've looked at the numbers, I've looked at my riding habits and history and I've done the risk assessment.

IF I get killed riding a bike (There is a VERY slim possibility of it happening) it will be because I got hit at high speed by a vehicle... there isn't a helmet manufacturer out there that is going to guarantee that their helmet is going to help in that accident... in fact they all go out of their way to point out that their products are NOT designed or engineered to help in that type of accident, despite the fact that a VAST majority of cyclist deaths are caused by this very thing.

As long as there are bad drivers on the road, it's a risk... but you take the same risk walking, jogging, driving, etc.

The fact of the matter is that cycling is a very safe activity and the health benefits are incredible.... Cycling daily is MUCH more likely to add years to your life than to shorten it... and anything that reduces the number of cyclists and number of miles cycled reduces the country's overall health and life expectancy.

Hey, bmclaughlin, this was the type of answer I was looking for. Thanks! I'll have to admit that it's been quite an education for me to hear how others truly feel based upon their riding experiences other than hearing about facts and figures that are essentially based upon speculation and perceived possibilities. While I'm by no means a "helmet crusader," I wear one because I feel it's quite necessary for the type of riding I usually do, and rarely do we ride in an urban environment. Conversely, my wife and I ride in a rather remote area of the world with some of the finest country roads available to any of us - at least IMO - and while it may be considered as some of the safest riding in the world in many respects due to very little traffic, we still encounter dogs, an occasional drunk driver (after all, we live in WI where drinking is a sport), road construction, and even whitetail deer. Hell, we were rolling down a hill at about 50 mph one day when a deer crossed the road only a few feet in front of us. Yikes! And yes, tandems will roll downhill very, very fast. I once clocked our bike at 56 mph a few years ago, and while it was a rather long hill, it wasn't extremely steep when compared to mountain or bluff riding. But, am I going to wear a helmet during such rides? You bet I will.

I also very much agree that the individual rider is the one who needs to be aware of all the hazards that present themselves in front of them, for the risks we take in life in general are very much a part of anything we participate in. After all, the bottom line is that any of us could be killed instantly by virtually any set of unsuspecting circumstances.

From another perspective, I haven't yet discussed how we obtained our first tandem. The original owners of our first tandem just happened to be about the same height and weight as my wife and myself - just by coincidence - and they were pretty close friends as well. During our club rides in the early 80s when I was still solo riding, I would often comment to them how nice it would be to have a tandem like the one they owned. As it turned out, the captain of that tandem ended up getting killed in a bicycle accident while racing on a solo bike, and he was wearing a helmet as well. After a few weeks of being in a coma, the doctors eventually determined that the cause of death was due to having major head injuries. Of course, in this case the helmet didn't do its job, that is, if it was supposedly intended to protect him from such injuries. From that standpoint alone, I certainly understand many of the points that have been made here. Long story short, we eventually bought that tandem from the captain's wife.

In short, we all have our arguments as to why or why not to wear a helmet, but isn't it really all about how we feel personally as well as being somewhat dependent upon our particular circumstances? I personally feel as though I need to wear one, but by no means do I feel it directly affects my riding abilities. I wear one only because I really don't care to have my skull ripped apart due to some unsuspecting situation that may arise. Yeah, that might be a speculative way of thinking, but I still feel as though it's better than leaving one's skull entirely exposed to whatever elements it may encounter. Of course, it isn't a cure-all protection system against the many possible scenarios that lie out there, but when I had my last accident, I was damn glad to be wearing a helmet.

Thanks again, everyone!

Jim

Last edited by jim_pridx; 06-29-10 at 01:18 AM.
jim_pridx is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 01:50 AM
  #606  
jim_pridx
Full Member
 
jim_pridx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 262

Bikes: 2010 Bob Brown Cycles tandem, 2019 Co-Mo Carrera tandem, 1980 Richardson tandem, 2014 Cervelo R3, 2018 Specialized Roubaix, 1985 Bianchi Campione, 1983 Trek 720, 2020 Trek Fuel EX8, 2021 Salsa Mukluk

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times in 70 Posts
AlmostTrick.....dang, I was born in Elgin.....at the Sherman Hospital. Too small of a world. Yeah, I'm originally a FIB.....LOL....but glad that I no longer live there.
jim_pridx is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 08:20 AM
  #607  
Dan The Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I suffered an accident last summer. I flipped down the road, hit my shoulder, then bounced onto my back. I had an apple in my back pocket. When I landed on my back, the apple was completely smashed. There was juice all inside my jersey. I broke my collar bone, but there is no doubt in my mind that if I hadn't had that apple in my pocket, my S4 vertebrae would certainly have been as smashed as that apple. Anyone looking at it would have understood that the apple took the brunt of the impact for me. I was also wearing a helmet, but it was unscathed. Anyone not riding with an apple in their pocket is taking chances with their life.
Dan The Man is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 08:21 AM
  #608  
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by jim_pridx
...In short, we all have our arguments as to why or why not to wear a helmet, but isn't it really all about how we feel personally
(with apologies to Dan Gardner)

Problems arise when feelings, or emotions, get in the way of making a rational decision. There're a couple portions of the mind that pull us in different directions.

There's the gut that makes instinctual and fast decisions and the head that takes more time, and analyzes the situation.

Humans have evolved over a long period of time and most of our instincts have developed to keep us safe but that development was refined in a different age. We are cave men living in a modern world and instinctually, have a difficult time dealing with it.

We all self select information to support our biases and discard, or scrutinize contrary positions.

It's through this scrutiny that I began to doubt the instinctual belief that a helmet would help me in situations that are dangerous. It was over a long period of time where I scrutinized contrary evidence when I learned that what I was thinking wasn't based on much, and the contrary position had significant merit.

Helmet promotion depends on people going with the gut and not subjecting those feelings to scrutiny.

Last edited by closetbiker; 06-29-10 at 08:27 AM.
closetbiker is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 08:48 AM
  #609  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,254
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4242 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times in 931 Posts
Originally Posted by closetbiker
We all self select information to support our biases and discard, or scrutinize contrary positions.
So true!!
njkayaker is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 08:59 AM
  #610  
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
So true!!
It's a good thing, when we do scrutinize, we go over any possible problem. When you can't find one, you can change your mind.

It took me years (22 in fact), but I finally removed the helmet. The reasons I had for wearing one didn't hold up to the scrutiny I subjected those reasons to.

Last edited by closetbiker; 06-29-10 at 10:18 AM.
closetbiker is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 09:07 AM
  #611  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker

You don't think it's possible (even likely) to find a similar number of equally-qualified people who are pro-helmet?
I haven't found a single helmet engineer - after looking very hard - who is willing to say that a helmet will have an ameliorating effect on a high injury collision. And that includes engineers chosen by that mad guy on a recumbent - the authors of the "Polymer Foam Handbook" that he quoted so selectively said in a serious head hit a helmet was useless.

Beyond being a group of people who agree with your position, is there anything that makes it clear that this particular group is correct?
Just having engineering degrees and actually having tested helmets in labs and looking at them in the real world.

One would think that helmet manufacturers are full of "professional helmet engineers" too.
Yes. What do you think would happen to one who posted "Hi, I work for Bell. Our helmets will have absolutely NO BENEFIT in a serious colision!" ? (Btw - congratulations on making the silliest contribution to these threads yet; I didn't think it was possible to beat the previous record.)

Last edited by meanwhile; 06-29-10 at 09:10 AM.
meanwhile is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 09:11 AM
  #612  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan The Man
I suffered an accident last summer. I flipped down the road, hit my shoulder, then bounced onto my back. I had an apple in my back pocket. When I landed on my back, the apple was completely smashed. There was juice all inside my jersey. I broke my collar bone, but there is no doubt in my mind that if I hadn't had that apple in my pocket, my S4 vertebrae would certainly have been as smashed as that apple. Anyone looking at it would have understood that the apple took the brunt of the impact for me. I was also wearing a helmet, but it was unscathed. Anyone not riding with an apple in their pocket is taking chances with their life.
Are you taking the pip?
meanwhile is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 09:19 AM
  #613  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,254
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4242 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times in 931 Posts
Originally Posted by meanwhile
I haven't found a single helmet engineer - after looking very hard - who is willing to say that a helmet will have an ameliorating effect on a high injury collision. And that includes engineers chosen by that mad guy on a recumbent - the authors of the "Polymer Foam Handbook" that he quoted so selectively said in a serious head hit a helmet was useless.
Of course, you'd have to define what "serious" and "high injury" means.

It's obvious that there are some collisions that are beyond what helmets could deal with.

Do you normally argue your position by stating tautologies?

Originally Posted by meanwhile
Just having engineering degrees and actually having tested helmets in labs and looking at them in the real world.
It appears that there is only one person on that list that has these attributes!

Last edited by njkayaker; 06-29-10 at 09:22 AM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 09:25 AM
  #614  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jim_pridx
Believe me, I didn't miss these arguments. And, you make a legitimate point. I agree with you that my helmet may not have fully performed to its fullest capacity. However, if I had not been wearing one, I honestly don't believe that I'd be here typing this as we speak.
Yes, but because you believe a thing does NOT MAKE IT TRUE! Many people believe many stupid things. In this case, you are one of them. Because the description of your helmet shows that no liner compression occurred, so the helmet provided no real benefit.

From that viewpoint alone, I'm thankful that the helmet did its job. Even if the helmet was only 50 to 75-percent effective in saving a life, I'd still choose wearing one to the alternative.
Once again: if a helmet smashes, this is because the shell fails. The shell is outside the liner and has to main integrity for liner compression to occur. If there is no compression the helmet fails utterly. You. Received. 0%. Benefit. This is how helmets work!

The reason you didn't die is that although you had a frightening and dramatic experience, your life was never really in danger. Cyclists virtually never die except in the sort of high energy car collisions that as likely as not do lethal torso as well or instead of neurological damage.

Funny thing about all the statistics I've read - not just here, but elsewhere, too - but many only speculate on what may or may not happen if a head injury were to occur. Many of the stats recorded are those that have been reported to authorities, such as those found in deaths as well as those that have required hospitalization. But, just how many crashes go unreported? We really have little or no data on this because many of whom that have had blows to the head while wearing a helmet have gotten up and walked away from the crash, myself included....with a "little headache" and all. With that said, it's really no wonder that we have very little solid evidence that absolutely proves one theory or another. I would honestly think that most of us here would have to agree that we're reaching for and making some rather insubstantial arguments into some rather gray areas here, don't ya think?
On lethal injuries - no. As you would know if you read the thread. Because the effectiveness of helmets in these can be deduced from how death rates change with the percentage of riders wearing helmets. Put simply, if helmets worked then countries which introduce helmet laws and so helmet use changes from say 30% to 95% would see a huge drop in death rates. They don't.
meanwhile is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 09:31 AM
  #615  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker

Of course, you'd have to define what "serious" and "high injury" means.
No, I'd use the common definition in the literature we are discussing.

It's obvious that there are some collisions that are beyond what helmets could deal with.

Do you normally argue your position by stating tautologies?
I get that you are annoyed that you look stupid, but even if I *had* left something undefined, that wouldn't be tautology. Really - don't make yourself look dumber than you have to.

It appears that there is only one person on that list that has these attributes!
You complained that a site that you chose had only one engineer on its editorial board and said that therefore I couldn't say multiple engineers doubted the life saving value of beer coolers; I responded by pointing out that was just one site and named more. Again you are just making yourself look dumber through trying to save face here. The only person who was stupid enough to think the site you chose would list every helmet doubting engineer in the world was you.

Last edited by meanwhile; 06-29-10 at 10:10 AM.
meanwhile is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 10:04 AM
  #616  
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by jim_pridx
Anyway, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks, guys!
As a late adopter at 18, I can see where your fear of injury while riding a bike comes from...no different than so many other late adopters or those who quit cycling when they learned to drive and only rediscovered it later in life. Riding a bike just isn't natural for you, so of course you worry about injury or worse.

I started riding without the training wheels at 4...regularly commuting to/from school and work at 13 and have continued to do so ever since (almost 40 years now), did some racing as a junior and now again in my late 40s and early 50s, have done some long distance riding, cross-country, self-supported loaded tours and of course the dreaded rec-only rides just for fun. Riding a bike is as natural as walking for me and I don't see any more need to wear a helmet riding than I do walking.

The only reason so many racers, in Europe or otherwise, wear helmets these days is because it is required...and because they are racing...duh. Do you want to use automobile racers as an example to promote helmet use for all motor vehicle operators too? Indeed, the car analogy is a good one, if used in the proper context...when engaging in risky behavior in an automobile, or on a bike, helmets are prudent. I guess the difference between you and I is that you feel that riding a bike outside of racing is risky behavior...I don't. You live your life your way and I'll so the same. What ticks me off is the sanctimonious BS that usually spews from the mouths and keyboards of those who think that wearing a helmet on a bicycle somehow makes them a "real" or "serious" cyclist, when they are the people who seem to have a problem riding a bike without falling down and going boom all the time.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

Last edited by chipcom; 06-29-10 at 10:15 AM.
chipcom is offline  
Old 06-29-10, 10:13 AM
  #617  
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
... What ticks me off is the sanctimonious BS that usually spews from the mouths and keyboards of those who think that wearing a helmet on a bicycle somehow makes them a "real" or "serious" cyclist.
what ticks me off is the denigration helmeteers foist upon those who choose differently, and their speculations they (attempt to) pass off as facts.
closetbiker is offline  
Old 06-30-10, 11:50 PM
  #618  
billew
meandering nomad
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Newport,Rhode Island
Posts: 444

Bikes: eleven bikes no car

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked 16 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by jim_pridx
Hell, we were rolling down a hill at about 50 mph one day when a deer crossed the road only a few feet in front of us. Yikes! And yes, tandems will roll downhill very, very fast. I once clocked our bike at 56 mph a few years ago, and while it was a rather long hill, it wasn't extremely steep when compared to mountain or bluff riding. But, am I going to wear a helmet during such rides? You bet I will.

Jim
Like Chipcom I have been riding all my life and I have never even had a driver's license, I'm 53 first bike at 7 Yrs. old.
I ride in all weather and times of day for utility and recreation. I do not feel that a helmet is all that important to me and have never even entertained the thought of owning one. And there is no helmet that will protect you going 50 MPH downhill.
I can say that I have been in crashes with cars and without and never hit my head. This last weekend I tried some off-trail riding and the two times I went down my head was not even near the ground. I understand your fears but I do not subscribe to them.
billew is offline  
Old 07-01-10, 06:09 AM
  #619  
RazrSkutr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 922
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You say that you're interested in all this stuff, but you appear to completely ignore or dismiss all the information that you've requested while simultaneously asking for more.

Originally Posted by jim_pridx
it's been quite an education for me to hear how others truly feel based upon their riding experiences other than hearing about facts and figures that are essentially based upon speculation and perceived possibilities.
All you're saying is that you'd prefer 5 or 10 select anecdotes completely "based upon speculation and perceived possibilities" instead of hundreds of thousands of examples which reveal variance, means and power. That's just a nice way of saying you'd rather ignore the vast majority of experiences.

Originally Posted by jim_pridx
I ride in a rather remote area of the world with some of the finest country roads available to any of us - at least IMO - and while it may be considered as some of the safest riding in the world in many respects due to very little traffic, we still encounter dogs, an occasional drunk driver (after all, we live in WI where drinking is a sport), road construction, and even whitetail deer. Hell, we were rolling down a hill at about 50 mph one day when a deer crossed the road only a few feet in front of us. Yikes! And yes, tandems will roll downhill very, very fast. I once clocked our bike at 56 mph a few years ago, and while it was a rather long hill, it wasn't extremely steep when compared to mountain or bluff riding. But, am I going to wear a helmet during such rides? You bet I will.
If a drunk driver's car smashes into you or you hit a deer while descending at 50mph you aren't going to be saved by your helmet. Seeing as you like anecdotes, the only case I know of a cyclist hitting a deer was an employee of the JPL (Pasadena, CA) hitting a deer during his descent home from work. The end result was that his helmeted head was fine but his neck was broken.

Originally Posted by jim_pridx
In short, we all have our arguments as to why or why not to wear a helmet, but isn't it really all about how we feel personally as well as being somewhat dependent upon our particular circumstances?
There is no evidence that helmets protect the wearer from serious injury. Your arguments completely fail to address the overwhelming number of accumulated anecdotes (ie "statistics") which suggest that your decision to wear one is based nearly entirely on nothing.

Originally Posted by jim_pridx
I wear one only because I really don't care to have my skull ripped apart due to some unsuspecting situation that may arise
Your posts continue to make magic claims for helmets: they WONT stop your skull being ripped apart.

Why do you bother posting and asking for information and keep posting the same old claptrap?

If you want to wear it, go ahead, but why bother asking for all this stuff (which is available to you with a simple Google search) and then ignore it and continue spreading rubbish like "helmets will stop my skull being ripped apart"?
RazrSkutr is offline  
Old 07-01-10, 06:21 PM
  #620  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
If a drunk driver's car smashes into you or you hit a deer while descending at 50mph you aren't going to be saved by your helmet. Seeing as you like anecdotes, the only case I know of a cyclist hitting a deer was an employee of the JPL (Pasadena, CA) hitting a deer during his descent home from work. The end result was that his helmeted head was fine but his neck was broken.
What happened to the deer?
meanwhile is offline  
Old 07-01-10, 06:27 PM
  #621  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RazrSkutr
There is no evidence that helmets protect the wearer from serious injury.
Actually, that isn't quite true, which is why I would wear a helmet for a crit:

- Helmets are useless in the sort of accidents where a serious injury is likely

- However it is possible to be seriously injured if you wobble off your bike at low speed - just as it is possible to die from a simple trip while walking. It's unlikely, but it can happen, and a correctly worn helmet will reduce the odds of injury. Probably. If it is a good one. Ignoring the rotational issue and the fact that the helmet makes your head a bigger target.

So if you are doing riding where you are quite likely to fall off WITHOUT a car hitting you, then a helmet makes sense. (Subject to the provisos given above.) So for crits, perhaps for riding on ice and snow, or if you are the guy who used to post here who seemed to fall off his bike everyday. Because lots of low risk incidents add up.

Last edited by meanwhile; 07-02-10 at 06:15 AM.
meanwhile is offline  
Old 07-01-10, 06:39 PM
  #622  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A Razr says, anecdotes are worthless. Here is some statistical insight from John Franklin, perhaps the UK's highest authority on cycling safety:

https://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/effectiveness.pdf

In 1996 Scuffham published a further paper25 looking at the trends in cycle injury in New Zealand
under voluntary helmet use, pre-law. In the period 1989 to 1992, helmet wearing rates increased from
46% to 84% for primary schoolchildren, 23% to 62% for secondary schoolchildren, and 21% to 39%
for adults. During the same period serious injuries to cyclists (all causes) decreased substantially for
children, but not for adults. However, serious head injuries as a percentage of all serious injuries
remained constant for all groups, with no apparent difference between bicycle-only and motor vehicle
related crashes. The percentages of mild concussions and lacerations to the scalp did decrease more
than other cyclist head injuries. Failure to achieve the predicted decline in serious head injury was
thought to be attributable to a number of factors, including the incorrect fitting and wearing of
helmets.

Scuffham noted that benefits from helmet wearing did not appear to have been achieved
post-legislation either, and there was an increase in neck injuries. A separate paper was said to be in
preparation.

Whole population samples have also been created in certain parts of the USA where cycle helmets
have been made compulsory, in most cases just for children. Krygowski26 collected statistics for
cyclist fatalities from the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration for all states
that had mandatory helmet laws, covering the period 1990 to 1995, as appropriate for when individual
laws were introduced. The data was disaggregated by age group. Krygowski found a slight
downward trend in fatalities, but no startling improvement as helmet use rose upon the introduction of
a law. In most cases gains made in the first years of a law were eroded a year or two later. In
Califomia, with its bigger population, better weather and much more cycling (thus yielding more
robust data), there was no detectable effect at all. A general result of the laws was to reduce
participation in cycling and it is possible that it is this that led to the reduction in fatalities.
Kunich27 analysed cyclist and pedestrian fatalities for the whole of the USA from 1986 to 1996.
During this period helmet use by cyclists rose from close to zero to 30% or more. Although cyclist
fatalities fell during the period, the decline was proportionately less than for pedestrians, and the
continuation of a long-term trend most probably associated with decreased exposure. Kunich
concluded that there is no evidence that cycle helmets are effective in reducing deaths, and quoted
research into football helmets28 that suggested that helmets can even cause new injuries by increasing
the effective size of the head.

Burdett29 carried out a similar analysis for Canada from 1975 to 1997. Fatality trends were similar for
cyclists and pedestrians throughout the period, and both fell. Although cycle helmet use grew from
virtually zero in 1988 to over 30% in 1995 and up to 50% in 1997, there is no detectable impact on
the fatalities recorded.

In Britain a paper from the London Research Centre30 shows cyclist casualties in Greater London
from 1981 to 1996. Despite an increase in cycle helmet wearing from nearly zero to almost 40% over
the decade 1986 to 1996, this has had no noticeable effect on trends for any severity of cyclist
casualty. Furthermore the 'severity ratio' (the proportion of casualties that are serious or fatal) was
higher in the most recent years than in the earliest years of the comparison. Detailed data on cycle use
is needed to refine the analysis, but the variation in cycle use is likely to be small compared with the
increase in helmet use.

Accident statistics31 from Great Britain as a whole and from Cambridge (with its large cycling
population) also show no evidence of a 'helmet effect' – the severity of cyclist injuries continuing to
follow well established trends despite large increases in helmet use.
The same paper contains a ruthless debunking of one of the most notorious "85% effective studies":

However, as well as being quoted extensively in favour of helmet wearing, this report has also
received much criticism, although this appears to have reached a much smaller audience. Principal
criticisms are:

The study is non-randomised.

Cyclists wearing helmets were mostly white and riding in parks or on cycle paths
accompanied by adults. Cyclists without helmets were more often black or other races,
riding alone on city streets.


Most of the injuries were minor, and there were no instances of helmeted cyclists in
collision with motor vehicles, but the results were extrapolated to apply to all types of
injury.


The same methodology can be used on other data in the study to show that helmet use also
reduces the risk of injury to other parts of the body by 72%.
I.e. the study compared children riding in parks with adults present to children riding alone on urban streets and concluded the difference in injury rate was entirely due to helmets!

I really do wish that there was evidence that some design of cycle helmet actually worked well to prevent serious injuries for adults. As long as it didn't reduce vision or my sense of balance I would buy one - not because I think I am likely to be killed, but because I'm paranoid and like a big safety factor. But there is no evidence suggesting that such a helmet exists.

Last edited by meanwhile; 07-01-10 at 06:43 PM.
meanwhile is offline  
Old 07-01-10, 07:08 PM
  #623  
Six jours
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
The same methodology can be used on other data in the study to show that helmet use also
reduces the risk of injury to other parts of the body by 72%.
I'll bet we can find at least one person on BF that sees this as an argument for and benefit of helmet use.
Six jours is offline  
Old 07-02-10, 06:17 AM
  #624  
meanwhile
Senior Member
 
meanwhile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Six jours
I'll bet we can find at least one person on BF that sees this as an argument for and benefit of helmet use.
Well, it's no more remarkable than believing that a helmet specced for a 12mph impact will protect you if you hit Bambi's mother at 50mph.
meanwhile is offline  
Old 07-02-10, 07:03 AM
  #625  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by meanwhile
A Razr says, anecdotes are worthless. Here is some statistical insight from John Franklin, perhaps the UK's highest authority on cycling safety:

The same paper contains a ruthless debunking of one of the most notorious "85% effective studies":

I.e. the study compared children riding in parks with adults present to children riding alone on urban streets and concluded the difference in injury rate was entirely due to helmets!

I really do wish that there was evidence that some design of cycle helmet actually worked well to prevent serious injuries for adults. As long as it didn't reduce vision or my sense of balance I would buy one - not because I think I am likely to be killed, but because I'm paranoid and like a big safety factor. But there is no evidence suggesting that such a helmet exists.
So does all that mean you are actually "anti-helmet?" Or that you just chose not to wear one?

I think that has been the biggest misnomer of this whole thread... is anyone actually "anti-helmet?" I know cyclists that don't wear helmets, I know cyclists that don't believe we should have helmet laws, but I don't know anyone that is "anti-helmet," except perhaps folks that prefer to not have "helmet hair."
genec is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.