SamSpade1941 

How much do you get paid an hour ? My time is worth enough to me that I’m not arguing to get a free $3 crown race.

I expressed my problem and asked how how do I get a replacement they told me .

jethin

For the record don’t think Tange makes a French hs. Feel free flame me if I’m wrong.

Off topic a bit, but I've wondered how important it is to have a very secure/tight crown race. My suspicion is that as long as it’s at least hand tight it’s prob fine if the hs is properly adjusted. See above re: flames.

SamSpade1941 

When I was looking for a new replacement headset VO was all I could find without spending $100 on a NOS unit

mpetry912 

Here's the split race on the VO page. https://velo-orange.com/products/headset-parts?

It takes a lot to crack a beefy steel Campagnolo crown race. This part looks like very thin cross section, which is probably why it's the "split" design.

Bad Lag

I guess I do not understand the purpose of this thread or the attitude behind Samspade1941's responses.

I also do not understand how any "mechanic" can break a split ring like the one shown above.

Finally, it's not a bearing race, it's a bearing seat. Yes, words have meaning.

Loose Chain

Since the thread went downhill, or uphill, not sure, I would use a micrometer, not a caliper, for critical measurements.

clasher

FWIW I've got a VO French headset sitting on my shelf and it doesn't have a split bearing seat since it's a caged ball version... I don't think they made a sealed version of the french headset. The race is stamped 26.4 in three places on the bottom. My only problem with it was that the stack height was a lot more than the original headset on the bike so it was useless. I don't know why they wouldn't choose to make it shorter since it's supposed to replace shorter steel headsets from BITD. Oh well!

Bad Lag

I always grab my caliper first.

The following is just meant as discussion of the tools of the trade.

A caliper would be just fine for measurements to well under (more accurate than) the nearest 0.1 mm (0.004"). A decent caliper is good down to almost 0.01mm (0.0005"). A cheap one can get you down to 0.025mm (0.001").

A micrometer is good for measurements down to 0.0025 mm (25 micrometers or 0.0001"). That level of precision just isn't required here, especially since we now know the bearing seat is a split ring.

Also, most people don't have anything except a 1" micrometer and the seat for the bearing seat is likely larger than that. Also, calipers can measure ID (and hole depth), whereas micrometers only measure OD.

SamSpade1941 

I just ran into this problem last night so all was for naught. I am back to square one now.

ETA I am now going to be forced to buy another french headset NOS or just buy a whole different fork that is not french and use one of my other headsets ( I have several Shimano 600 and a couple of XT headsets in my bin) .

SamSpade1941 

first of all as others have stated its wasnt split race. My attitude was because kingston was insisting on being rude and obtuse, the mechanic I use when I dont have the tools to DIY is actually very knowledgeable. So I trust him that something was wrong . I did not have an attitude with anyone else ...

I simply was letting others know of my experiences... As I stated about a minute ago it ended up being a dead end because the VO headset is so tall it will not work with my fork.

dddd

I've seen a crown race split, so whenever I encounter a seemingly tight fit onto the fork crown seating area before it has moved close to the crown, I go back and simply use sandpaper on the OD of the crown race seating.

You don't want a "floating" fit, since it is prone to further loosening over time unless all the surfaces are finely finished, which they are not.
I've seen many OEM installations that eventually suffered from a loose-fitting crown race, the old Schwinn EF bikes and Supersports come to mind.

Preventing dents in the crown race is as much about making absolutely sure that the adjustment isn't even slightly too tight as it is about anything else including the material quality of the parts. Note that tightening an expanding stem quill into a fork steerer actually shortens the steerer and thus tightens the bearing adjustment (much like a quick-release compresses a hub axle and thus tightens the axle bearing adjustment).

If replacing cages with loose balls to make a used headset run smoother, never "remove one" ball from a filled headset cup or the balls will have the degree of freedom to find their way into the dents in the highest-load zone of the races.True full-compliment is the way too go but of course test the assembly for smooth rotation as soon as the top cup or cone is snugged down. The same goes for any ball bearing assembly except for freewheels and perhaps freehub bodies.

3alarmer 

1. it's not unheard of to run a headset with no spacer between the top nut and the top race in this circumstance. Assuming that gets you to where you need to be in terms of threads engaged between top nut and fork.

2. the more recent Stronglight A9 had a pretty short stack height. I think they stopped making them, but you ought to do a couple of searches on French e-bay (not our e-bay) and see if anything turns up. It's a good source for French specific stuff.

3. people have been known to run a regular headset using a different, French threaded top race and nut. I can't tell you how well it works, because I've always managed to come up with another way.

3alarmer 

...it's important. It's so important I've taken the time and energy to either dimple the crown race seat with a punch a couple of times, or shimmed the crown race fit with some small pieces of sheet stock.

What you get with a floating fit is a headset that sort of does it's job, but not really well.

It's obviously not important with a split race, sealed bearing headset, because the "races" for the bearings are in the cartridges. But certainly a loosely fitted crown race with a standard, old school headset will work. I've taken plenty of bikes apart that had this going on and the people who had them before me were probably oblivious to the steering effects.

unworthy1

Interesting point about using "full compliment" of loose balls, I always stuck with the time-honored (old wives tales for old mechanics?) method of "fill and remove 1 ball"...I may have to re-think now. I also have installed a lot of standard crown races and being lazy I don't always measure FIRST (and I own micrometers but ALWAYS use a digital caliper on bikes), so if I find I'm trying to ram a 26.4 crown race on a 27.0 crown race seat (or more likely a 27.1) I am forced to stop cause it's always apparent that it WILL NOT GO. That's not close to a press-fit tolerance and the amount of pounding to force-fit that mis-match would probably damage the fork if I persisted in trying. I don't try.

cudak888 

After reading through all the good (and bad) information in this thread - most of it at cross purposes over incorrect assumptions - I'm still trying to figure out what happened to this bearing seat.

How do you "fracture" a split bearing seat that's already split and doesn't require any force to install? Did it split in half?

I really don't want to throw more conjecture into this thread until I see some photographic evidence of what went wrong, but my own theory is that this apparently fautless mechanic didn't even look at the bearing seat before trying to install it with a conventional crown race setter.

Then, when he saw the split...

"HEY, SAM! IT BROKE!"

Face it, even an "experienced" mechanic can screw something up if he (or she) is working on something completely new without an instruction manual.

Pictures, please. Methinks that you have two completely intact Velo Orange bearing seats sitting around, waiting to play their dastardly sneaky tricks on unsuspecting mechanics.

-Kurt

dddd

Reviewing clasher's post #57 , I take it that he and the OP have determined that this loose-ball or caged-ball version of the VO headset does not have a split crown seating ring.
It's a different "cartridge"-bearing version that uses a split seating ring.

Clearly the fit had too much interference for the material limits of the crown race, resulting in it splitting.
There is probably a wide range of resistance to splitting among the various brands of headsets, and I would have to assume that these ones have low limits in this area for a bike mechanic to manage to split two of them.
It reminds me of the S-Works alloy chainring bolts, where the threading is a 6x1mm stud extension of the usual drive-side "bolt", and where all of only two threads engage. I stripped two of these before even realizing that they were intended to be torqued to just 3.9 N-m and with Loctite used to prevent their loosening, then found out that you have to buy a full set of five of them for like $50. I ended up having to fabricate two bolt/nut assemblies from modified normal bolt/nuts to secure the rings to the carbon crank spider.
Mechanics are used to working on parts with familiar levels of durability, and in the interest of working efficiently and not leaving things too loose, weak parts may fail when handled in the usual manner.

cudak888 

Fair enough, but I'm not quite convinced that it's one or the other without at least a picture of the thing. Armchair parts failure forensic science can be dodgy enough with photos, much less blind.

-Kurt

SamSpade1941 

VO does not make a sealed bearing french headset pretty easy to verify on their website. I still do not understand why this is being debated when its been established already.

cudak888 

That's fine. Can we see a picture, please?

-Kurt

SamSpade1941 

I said it was a french headset... I know what I purchased what do you have to gain by seeing a photo of it there is no split crown race. I am not even using the original race at this point or using the head set for that matter the stack height was too tall for the steerer tube.

cudak888 

But I don't know what you purchased, other than the generic pictures I can find of the same headset. Sure, it may look the same, but maybe they changed suppliers. Maybe it's ever so slightly different. Maybe it isn't. Hard to know without looking at the exact item in question.

What do I hope to gain? I hope to gain a better look at the race, including the visual appearance of the fracture, and possibly an idea of the overall quality from its finish. Also, if you're willing to cut one in half, perhaps we could see the consistency of the aluminum at the fracture.

The witness marks around the inside of the race would be interesting to look at as well.

So can you indulge us with a picture now?

-Kurt

Loose Chain

I am not the one breaking things and I have inside mics. Most cheap calipers, digital or otherwise, read two digits, a mic will go three or more. If accuracy is needed, a caliper is not all that precise, as measuring instruments go.

cudak888 

OP already said this:

So that means the mechanic either...

• measured it incorrectly, and the crown race is too small now (to be honest, I think this is unlikely),
• measured it incorrectly, but the crown race is really 26.5mm as it should be,
• measured it correctly, knew it was faced to 26.5mm and told the OP that it was 26.4mm to avoid getting too technical,
• measured it correctly, but the caliper wasn't accurate enough or was on a low spot,
• measured nothing, because he feels very confident about his crown race tool.

More importantly, there are so many variables trying to remotely diagnose this that you really can't assess what the crown race is right now. It doesn't really matter if the mechanic had a caliper or micrometer.

...unless there's a plan to measure it again.

-Kurt

Kuromori

Plenty of older non-split alloy cartridge crown races. It's split because it makes installation and removal trivial, and a crown race seat slightly out of spec doesn't really matter, that's it. No special tools, no nonsense. Sometimes I'll split them myself if they don't come that way.

3alarmer 

...I keep coming back to this thread. I don't know why.